This is Your Brain on Religion

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I'm getting the sudden urge to don a hair shirt and engage in a bit of self flagellation...

I've got the urge to pass out the valium.

And no, I don't actually have any.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:I'm getting the sudden urge to don a hair shirt and engage in a bit of self flagellation...

I just might join you.

I have to flagellate when I get off work. Too many people around at the moment.

Oh, wait, did you...nevermind.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Are you basically getting at non-attachment, gangajal? I haven't been following this thread closely so I'm a little out of the loop.

Long Chen Pa said: "Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter." I use this quote a lot.

Yes!

I was amused by the storm of messages unleashed by my posts.

There is no point in being depressed by life's meaninglessness. Instead one becomes calm after realizing life's meaninglessness. It is the truth of life's meaninglessness and not the false comfort of 'today' or 'another sunrise' that allows one to detach oneself from both life's miseries and joys.

I have never seen detachment as meaninglessness. I think life is very meaningful, and I do not think we should become detached either. I think we should experience the full gamut. That actually makes life more meaningful.

One should just try to prevent other energies from being absorb by your own. And work through your experiences to achieve happiness and the incredible fulfilment of love.

Peace

Well there in lies the rub (since we're on the whole Shakespeare bent), the differences in religions and world views which focus on the temporal, where life is celebrated and those which focus on the hereafter and believe the temporal is suffering, and life is something to escape from.

Yes Gorm.

gangajal wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:Are you basically getting at non-attachment, gangajal? I haven't been following this thread closely so I'm a little out of the loop.

Long Chen Pa said: "Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter." I use this quote a lot.

Yes!

I was amused by the storm of messages unleashed by my posts.

There is no point in being depressed by life's meaninglessness. Instead one becomes calm after realizing life's meaninglessness. It is the truth of life's meaninglessness and not the false comfort of 'today' or 'another sunrise' that allows one to detach oneself from both life's miseries and joys.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Well there in lies the rub (since we're on the whole Shakespeare bent), the differences in religions and world views which focus on the temporal, where life is celebrated and those which focus on the hereafter and believe the temporal is suffering, and life is something to escape from.

Christianity and Hinduism are remarkably similar in that. One god, and life is meant to be suffered and escaped.

Funny I did not know Hinduism was like that until now. I thought better of it then that.

Oh, come on! That is a legitimate question! If life is meaningless, why live it? I didn't mean it to be rude, but what is the motivation to live if you have decided life is meaningless to you?

In Christianity, it is against their gods wishes to end one's life before the god does it. What is the reason for living and not taking one's own life in Gangajal's opinion of his religion? Is that better phrased?

Gilly, I sent you a PM to explain. And yes, better phrased.

I mean Hinduism (and to be fair) Christianity are not monolithic in their despair and there are many life affirming members, sects and so on...

I mean if life was all but suffering, why is it that the same culture produced the original "sex manual"?

Hey, everyone knows that sex is meaningless! "It didn't mean anything," is a phrase many wives' have heard.

I think I am the first person to be censored on this site, BTW. That means we are finally a legitimate site.

Do I win a prize?

LOL! You're not the first. You win a TED hug regardless.

gillyflower wrote:Hey, everyone knows that sex is meaningless! "It didn't mean anything," is a phrase many wives' have heard.

Still fun though.

gillyflower wrote:I think I am the first person to be censored on this site, BTW. That means we are finally a legitimate site.

Do I win a prize?

You were censored? Darn it! I never know what is going on!

SG she was censored so fast I actually never saw the offending post.
Someone around here is as fast as lightening.

So much of the conversation happens after I go to bed. So I have to reread and then try to suss out the points in the thread. I am going to do that. I will be direct but, I hope, respectful.

Each of us, I think, never really lives. Neally, I mean that. Think about it, guys. We have physical bodies. We live in a world of senses. Yet, for all that we don't, do we? Why? We may live in a physical body buy our lives are lived in our heads. Our brains, our minds run the show. We are at once inside our mind standing to one side so to speak doing an internal dialogue and commentary on everyting we do. We do that running commentary even as we touch, physically touch, the world. That is where our lives are lived. Does this make sense?

I don't think most of us can be so, well, completely dispassionate about the meaning of our lives. Frankly, I don't think most of us want to be such. When I have my nihilistic moments saying, "Is this all there is?" No matter how many times I have comtemplated this question I never, ever, have my answer come to me as a resounding NO!!!! My answer is and always has been yes. I think we all comtemplate and ponder deeply about the meaning of our lives. Perhpas we are afraid we are going to come up with the place you seem to have gotten to. Me, I have looked at this, hard. I decided I don't want to search for a place of comlete detachment. I may be seen no more but I absolutely want to strut and fret this hour on my stage.

I am pretty sure that when I die I'll get the point. Even if that point is going to complete oblivion. I sure hope not. I have a faith and life experiences that have convinced me that this won't be the case. I don't want to be one of the cerebral people watching my life from the outside on the sidelines watching it all go by me thinking that at the end of my life this is all I will have ever had. I may be mad as a march hare but I have to try to touch, see, feel, tase, smell and at times punch this life in the face. I have to blow rasperries at it. I have to scream at it. I have to love it, be indifferent to it, be engaged in it. I have to hate it. I want to glory and wallow in the pain. I have to feel sorry for myself. All of that happens in my life. All of it has happened in my life. You may be right. Life may not be worth a single hill of beans. That is completely up to you and is, for you, what is important about your idea of life. Mine is vastly different. Your way isn't the only way or the best way. My life isn't the only way or best way. It is your way and it is my way.

I am not being disrespectful of you or scoffing at your point of view. I would like to understand it better. I would like to know you better. Can we have a conversation? Thanks.

gillyflower wrote:Oh, come on! That is a legitimate question! If life is meaningless, why live it? I didn't mean it to be rude, but what is the motivation to live if you have decided life is meaningless to you?

In Christianity, it is against their gods wishes to end one's life before the god does it. What is the reason for living and not taking one's own life in Gangajal's opinion of his religion? Is that better phrased?

This is actually the first good question I faced.

Life is meaningless only if one thinks of it without the spiritual aspect. The meaninglessness of life (in the physical or mental plane) should spur one to spiritual effort. Here I am using the word spiritual to mean the spirit plane and not any mental experience. Life is considered in Hindu tradition as a way to realize God or Self. This is the reason why one does not take one's own life. Life considered by itself of course has no meaning or purpose.

MaineCaptain wrote:I have never seen detachment as meaninglessness. I think life is very meaningful, and I do not think we should become detached either. I think we should experience the full gamut. That actually makes life more meaningful.

One should just try to prevent other energies from being absorb by your own. And work through your experiences to achieve happiness and the incredible fulfilment of love.

Peace

There is no doubt that the idea of detachment can appear to be brutal. There is no getting away from that. Let me quote here one of the most brutal versions of detachment any where:

21: And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go
and bury my father.
22: But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

Mathew 8.21-22

This statement is much harsher than anything I have seen in any Hindu text.

How do most Hindus react to the idea of detachment? Most Hindus say that they are not mentally strong enough
to practice such detachment. For those people the path of householder is prescribed. A householder does not have to practice this kind of detachment. The idea is that the householder will gradually over many births will succeed in attaining a detached attitude after they have had a full experience of life. It is accepted in the Hindu tradition that most people will not be able to attain the detached status without experiencing all of life over many births. Such experiencing will not of course make life meaningful.

The ultimate goal, however, remains detachment. Only monks are expected to practice the kind of detachment I mentioned.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
If you believe in a deity, then perhaps it's that deity. If you believe in nothing at all, then just being grateful not to have moved into oblivion for one more day. There's not any particular someone or thing needed to express gratitude. Just being happy to be alive, and being grateful for the opportunity to live is not a requirement for a religious belief.

Deity does not interfere in human life as far as I can see. Otherwise we will have to hold the deity responsible for all kinds of unfortunate things. So I see no reason to be grateful to anyone for my condition. Whatever I am has happened because of my own effort and not because of any deity.

gillyflower wrote:If life is meaningless, why live it?

Well, as long as life isn't too uncomfortable and one has one's little pleasures, why not? Mostly, I suppose, we live it because we've got into the habit of it and habits are hard to break.

By the way, why were you censored? Did you use a naughty word?