This is Your Brain on Religion

DotNotInOz wrote:deleted posting

Well, fine. Delete your post. Be that way.

LOL, SG...just figured it was pointless continuing the discussion from my perspective.

You are making a lot of sense, MC ((((((MC))))))))))

I believe that a lot of people are programmed by their religions (and maybe influenced too by their own UPGs) to expect that experiences with the spiritual world will conform to pre-expectations. They think that spirits or the spiritual world will conform to their expectations and that everything else is not contact with the spiritual world and/or spiritual beings. To me, it is a bit like walking around with blinders on.

And just to offend even more people IMO it means that some people think Gods must conform to myths told 2,000 years ago and not change. If a god or spiritual being or the spiritual world deviates from the preconceived notion a person holds, what to do? I wonder how many times that has happened.

Ed. to add: Programmed by their culture too, I think.

Thank you Gilly. I do agree with you, I think people expect a certain thing and if it is different, Yes exactly as you described.
I find that sad, because then people miss so much.

But it is their journey, All I can hope is that everyone is enjoying it.
And although several here disagree, we are still friends, I love this place!!!!

gillyflower wrote:Thank you for explaining. In other words, in Hindu tradition, spirit is only perceived under certain conditions, correct? Therefore you artificially set up conditions and your god can only connect with you during that period and in the way that you feel, though other people's experiences, it should occur?

I think that differs from my religion. We have religious practices that set up (we think) favorable conditions for contact but we are also open to and accepting of contact outside of those conditions.

Spirit is perceived when our mind becomes pure. Otherwise spirit can not be perceived. So yes there is a special condition and that is pure mind. Most of Yogic practice is to purify the mind.

It is not that spirit only contacts when the mind is pure. As MaineC says spirit is always in contact since we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are not, however, aware of such a contact, i.e., currently it is a one way street. Spirit in contact with us but we are not aware of it. Hindu tradition says that we need to purify our mind if we want to perceive the contact.

One problem with this discussion is that I am translating Sanskrit terms into English. Of course it is western scholars who have suggested these translations. My discussion here suggests that these translations may not be accurate. I am really talking of Aparoksha Anubhuti when I am writing spiritual experience. It is possible that there is no good translation of Aparoksha (Anubhuti means experience) in English.

[quote="gangajal"]

gillyflower wrote:
One problem with this discussion is that I am translating Sanskrit terms into English. Of course it is western scholars who have suggested these translations. My discussion here suggests that these translations may not be accurate. I am really talking of Aparoksha Anubhuti when I am writing spiritual experience. It is possible that there is no good translation of Aparoksha (Anubhuti means experience) in English.

Another problem is that Sanskrit concepts don't always exist in other religious systems.

gillyflower wrote:Thank you for explaining. In other words, in Hindu tradition, spirit is only perceived under certain conditions, correct? Therefore you artificially set up conditions and your god can only connect with you during that period and in the way that you feel, though other people's experiences, it should occur?

I think that differs from my religion. We have religious practices that set up (we think) favorable conditions for contact but we are also open to and accepting of contact outside of those conditions.

gangajal wrote:Spirit is perceived when our mind becomes pure. Otherwise spirit can not be perceived. So yes there is a special condition and that is pure mind. Most of Yogic practice is to purify the mind.

It is not that spirit only contacts when the mind is pure. As MaineC says spirit is always in contact since we are spiritual beings having a human experience. We are not, however, aware of such a contact, i.e., currently it is a one way street. Spirit in contact with us but we are not aware of it. Hindu tradition says that we need to purify our mind if we want to perceive the contact.

I disagree. I doubt that there is at any given point a high level of purity in my mind..... in fact, even the concept of a "pure mind" is a little vague to me, and over complicated where spirituality is concerned. If I had to wait for a pure spirit moment to experience contact with the cosmos, then I just might never have one.
All of us experience our concept of deity in different ways. I'm sure that on some level even an atheist, while calling it something else entirely, has had an experience of such profound joy or beauty, it defies explanation. And by what ever it is called, all people have these experiences. That is a commonality all humans share.

gangajal wrote:One problem with this discussion is that I am translating Sanskrit terms into English. Of course it is western scholars who have suggested these translations. My discussion here suggests that these translations may not be accurate. I am really talking of Aparoksha Anubhuti when I am writing spiritual experience. It is possible that there is no good translation of Aparoksha (Anubhuti means experience) in English.

And now we're wearing our intellectual's hat, are we? Translating Sanskrit to English, and loosing the meaning (if there ever was one to begin with) in translation? Let's look at this Sanskrit Proverb. It's not at all as you describe in all of your attempted translations, and more profound in it's simplicity than anything you've put forth so far. Most people regardless of beliefs can relate to this proverb. It isn't difficult to understand, it can transcends beliefs, and unite all with positive energy. And it says nothing about requiring a pure spirit to experience a spiritual concept, or even require a belief in a deity in order to understand and accept:

Look well to this Day
For it is Life...
the very Best of Life!
In its brief course lie all
the Realities and Truths of Existence
the Joy of Growth!
the Splendor of Action!
the Glory of Power!


for Yesterday is but a memory
and Tomorrow is only a vision
but Today IF LIVED WELL* makes
every yesterday a Memory of Happiness
and every tomorrow a Vision of Hope
LOOK WELL THEREFORE TO THIS DAY!

The biggest problems with most beliefs, regardless of religions or lack there of, as John Mainer pointed out is that each person believes he or she must be right, and in order to be truly happy, we must concoct all sorts of rigorous ideas as to how to attain this elusive spirituality. SG suggested UPG. And I agree. How I attain my spiritual fulfillment and how someone like Won'tbefooledagain, or TigersEyeDowsing attains their's may be completely different, and even contradictory. But they are perfect fits for us within our own separate concepts. There is no right or wrong requiring debate, and certainly no need for hostile feelings over. It's individual perceptions, and no one should have to bow to someone else's concepts in order to fit in.

That is my favorite poem, John. It portrays my world view perfectly.

gillyflower wrote:That is my favorite poem, John. It portrays my world view perfectly.

And mine, gilly. As long as I keep remembering that poem, my world stays in perfect harmony with the universe.

I've been trying to add this quote "It isn't about waiting for the storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain." to my tag line for about a week. Can anybody offer some suggestions, or help this poor computer illiterate old man get it added on?

I posted this on the other thread, John but will again.

1. Click on Profile at the top of the forum.

2. Click on Signature in the pale blue block.

3. Add the signature and save it.

It will not post on old posts. To see it, make a new post.

I just changed mine that way.

Edited to say I was wrong. It does change it on older posts after all.

I just saved it again on my profile..... Let's see what happens now....

Nope.... nadda. Oh well.....

Check to see if the radio button is clicked under preferences to always show your signature, too.

Just did..... So we'll see.

Yep it (kinda) worked!

Volla!!!!!!!! We dood it!

I'll work on that later. I'm just gald to have it.

John A. Cancienne wrote: And it says nothing about requiring a pure spirit to experience a spiritual concept, or even require a belief in a deity in order to understand and accept:

Look well to this Day
For it is Life...
the very Best of Life!
In its brief course lie all
the Realities and Truths of Existence
the Joy of Growth!
the Splendor of Action!
the Glory of Power!


for Yesterday is but a memory
and Tomorrow is only a vision
but Today IF LIVED WELL* makes
every yesterday a Memory of Happiness
and every tomorrow a Vision of Hope
LOOK WELL THEREFORE TO THIS DAY!

I find such a poem rather grotesque. I shuddered reading this poem. Surely the Jewish person gassed by the Nazis, millions of people living during white colonial rule, Amreican Indians and Blacks living in 19th and 20th century America, were not able to look well therefore to 'this day'. The cancer patient who can only look forward to unceasing pain is not able to look well to 'this day'. The list can go on and on.

I guess this poem will appeal to people who have always had a good life and not suffered any pain or suffering.
This poetry seems to me to be panglossian in nature.

I always make sure that I am not guided by such silly poetry. I breathe a sigh of relief when a day passes without it bringing me any pain.

Hindu tradition says that there are 3 planes:
1. Physical plane,
2. Mental Plane, and
3. Consciouness or Spirit plane.

Aparoksha Anubhuti is about experience in the Consciouness or Spirit plane.
It is by definition not experience in the mental plane.

[[[The biggest problems with most beliefs, regardless of religions or lack
there of, as John Mainer pointed out is that each person believes he or
she must be right...]]]

Yes, this is indeed a problem. I, however, did not imply that my "belief" is right. I said that I consider any system that forces its followers to believe blindly is inferior to systems that do not do such thing. If anyone thinks that my position is not correct then I have a question.

Do you think that the Roman Church was right in forcing Galileo to recant his position that Earth moves or was Galileo right? This question sums up what I am saying. All I am saying is that Galileo's position was superior to that of the Roman Church since Galileo's position was not based on blind belief..

[[[How I attain my spiritual fulfillment and how someone like
Won'tbefooledagain, or TigersEyeDowsing attains their's may be
completely different, and even contradictory. But they are perfect fits
for us within our own separate concepts. There is no right or wrong
requiring debate, and certainly no need for hostile feelings over. It's
individual perceptions, and no one should have to bow to someone else's
concepts in order to fit in]]]

True! I have no problem with this statement.

I agree with you, gangajal.

I hope that each day will not bring more than I can handle.

[quote="gangajal"]

John A. Cancienne wrote: And it says nothing about requiring a pure spirit to experience a spiritual concept, or even require a belief in a deity in order to understand and accept:

Look well to this Day
For it is Life...
the very Best of Life!
In its brief course lie all
the Realities and Truths of Existence
the Joy of Growth!
the Splendor of Action!
the Glory of Power!


for Yesterday is but a memory
and Tomorrow is only a vision
but Today IF LIVED WELL* makes
every yesterday a Memory of Happiness
and every tomorrow a Vision of Hope
LOOK WELL THEREFORE TO THIS DAY!

gangajal wrote:I find such a poem rather grotesque. I shuddered reading this poem. Surely the Jewish person gassed by the Nazis, millions of people living during white colonial rule, Amreican Indians and Blacks living in 19th and 20th century America, were not able to look well therefore to 'this day'. The cancer patient who can only look forward to unceasing pain is not able to look well to 'this day'. The list can go on and on.

And why couldn't they look well to this day? Do you not treasure each morning (regardless of your medical or financial situation) that you are given? Are there no accomplishments, or surprises in your life to be thankful for at the end of the day? If both of those answers are “no” then I pity you. Even though people struggle, and we can dig up as much ancient history as you’d like to dredge to describe human suffering, there is still joy to be found in our daily lives that bring meaning to us. You speak of someone suffering with cancer, who can only look forward to unceasing pain. This tells me that you haven’t visited many cancer patients. For those who are not yet called terminal, the urge to fight and win the battle is always in the front of their mind, and any small change for the better is a gift. For those who are terminal, a soft touch, and just company to keep them from being alone is something to treasure. I know of modern day struggles in the right here, right now where children are starving, lack proper medical care, drinking water, and education who still find joy in this day, and each day the divine allows them to encounter. It’s a mind set. It’s being determined to be thankful regardless of the situation for what you have in the here and now. Without such gratitude, how can one expect the blessing of a pure spirit to encounter the divine? Remember what it says…. Today if lived well. I don’t see where dwelling on the sufferings of others from the past is living well. I don’t see where focusing on the past, rather than doing what one can today to make someone’s tomorrow a better place is living well.

Is this the best argument you can produce?

gangajal wrote:I guess this poem will appeal to people who have always had a good life and not suffered any pain or suffering.
This poetry seems to me to be panglossian in nature.

I always make sure that I am not guided by such silly poetry. I breathe a sigh of relief when a day passes without it bringing me any pain.

Then (and this is only my opinion) you have no gratitude, and you need to find your solace elsewhere. Don’t look for it in some spiritual plane if your physical plane has no gratitude for this day given to you.

gangajal wrote:Hindu tradition says that there are 3 planes:
1. Physical plane,
2. Mental Plane, and
3. Consciousness or Spirit plane.

Aparoksha Anubhuti is about experience in the Consciousness or Spirit plane.
It is by definition not experience in the mental plane.

And your point?!

gangajal wrote:[[[The biggest problems with most beliefs, regardless of religions or lack
there of, as John Mainer pointed out is that each person believes he or
she must be right...]]]

Yes, this is indeed a problem. I, however, did not imply that my "belief" is right. I said that I consider any system that forces its followers to believe blindly is inferior to systems that do not do such thing. If anyone thinks that my position is not correct then I have a question.

Do you think that the Roman Church was right in forcing Galileo to recant his position that Earth moves or was Galileo right? This question sums up what I am saying. All I am saying is that Galileo's position was superior to that of the Roman Church since Galileo's position was not based on blind belief..

Ancient history again. Let’s talk present day, shall we? I read on the Catholic Debate board where the RCC is telling Catholics everywhere not to participate in Rikki. Now as I understand Rikki, and it isn’t much, it’s about as harmless as a chiropractic visit. I deal with healing stones, and carry a medicine bag with me every place I go. Do I agree with this church ruling? Actually, no I don’t. But then again, I’m neither Catholic, nor am I Christian, so anything they tell their followers has no impact on me. For the Catholic who wants to take the ruling of their church, and follow it? That’s pretty much their choice isn’t it. It has no effect on my life at all.

gangajal wrote:[[[How I attain my spiritual fulfillment and how someone like
Won'tbefooledagain, or TigersEyeDowsing attains their's may be
completely different, and even contradictory. But they are perfect fits
for us within our own separate concepts. There is no right or wrong
requiring debate, and certainly no need for hostile feelings over. It's
individual order to fit in]]]

True! I have no problem with this statement.

Something tells me I should feel honored.