This is Your Brain on Religion

gangajal wrote:

John A. Cancienne wrote: And it says nothing about requiring a pure spirit to experience a spiritual concept, or even require a belief in a deity in order to understand and accept:

Look well to this Day
For it is Life...
the very Best of Life!
In its brief course lie all
the Realities and Truths of Existence
the Joy of Growth!
the Splendor of Action!
the Glory of Power!


for Yesterday is but a memory
and Tomorrow is only a vision
but Today IF LIVED WELL* makes
every yesterday a Memory of Happiness
and every tomorrow a Vision of Hope
LOOK WELL THEREFORE TO THIS DAY!

I find such a poem rather grotesque. I shuddered reading this poem. Surely the Jewish person gassed by the Nazis, millions of people living during white colonial rule, Amreican Indians and Blacks living in 19th and 20th century America, were not able to look well therefore to 'this day'. The cancer patient who can only look forward to unceasing pain is not able to look well to 'this day'. The list can go on and on.

I guess this poem will appeal to people who have always had a good life and not suffered any pain or suffering.
This poetry seems to me to be panglossian in nature.

I always make sure that I am not guided by such silly poetry. I breathe a sigh of relief when a day passes without it bringing me any pain.

The poem appeals to me and I have not always had a good life (whatever you think that is). I have had pain and experienced other types of suffering. We could take a poll if you like to ask if people who do suffer pain, and suffer in other ways, who have had unhappy things happen in their lives if they still can enjoy each day they are alive. I know I do, even though I know that people and animals have suffered and died for several million years if not a little more than that.

I don't really understand your fear of pain. Is there a reason you fear it so much? Pain is part of life and despite occasionally feeling pain, I feel joy in each day, too. If this is all I get, then I am going to wring every bit of enjoyment out of it I can. To do less, IMO, is an insult to the Divine.

This is a paraphrase of a Mercedes Lackey story, but it illustrates my beliefs on the problems of pain and evil in the world.

Once upon a time there was a hunter who ran into a streak of extraordinary luck. Game was plenty and relatively stupid and he was able to provide over and over again for his family without exercising and maintaining his skills.

Over time though, the hunting got tougher. Game became more scarce, and the stupid animals were eventually taken out, leaving only the smart animals left. So with rusty skills and less game, it became harder to provide for his family, and a number of times they went hungry.

Finally, the hunter became desperate and went to the priest to ask for help from the goddess. When he went to the priest, the priest looked him up and down and said, "You're not dead yet."

The gods will always leave us with options. Sometimes you just have to think outside of the box.

I like that poem, and I have had pain quite a bit in my life, Starting when I was two years old, Emotional and physical abuse and pain.

And had clinical depression as a pre-teen and teen, I know all kinds of pain and fear. I like that poem.
I like anything that is encouraging and hopeful. Because there is always hope. And you are usually as happy as you choose to be.

Cap! Where have you been lately? It seems I haven't seen you about.

I have had two incidents coincide, I had to clean the apartment because that annoying tenant trashed the place when he left.

And we have had four continuous days of thunderstorms which means I could not turn on or plug in the computer. Complete with huge amounts of rain and power outages. Been an interesting season.

I am sorry if I caused concern for anyone. And thank you for being concerned. I would have emailed, but of course thunderstorms.

MaineCaptain wrote:I have had two incidents coincide, I had to clean the apartment because that annoying tenant trashed the place when he left.

And we have had four continuous days of thunderstorms which means I could not turn on or plug in the computer. Complete with huge amounts of rain and power outages. Been an interesting season.

I am sorry if I caused concern for anyone. And thank you for being concerned. I would have emailed, but of course thunderstorms.

Not that I haven't missed you terribly, Maine, cuz you know I have. But could you sush yer yap about all of the rain you're getting? We're in a drout down here, and on top of my grass and plants all withering, my garden is starting to take on the look of the Sahara. You don't want rain? Send me some!

John

I was not complaining, I personally love rain. WE have had ten weeks of nearly nothing but rain. I still love rain. Of course jokes are going around about how we have no idea what that big yellow thing in the sky is.

But I do hope you get a lovely soak soon.

I think it is a perfectly fine poem, and it does not hurt that I find its message quite appealing.

Live the best life you can, what else is there?

The best part of life is living. Life is not pretty, plesant or happy. It just is. We live it regardless of what comes to us. I think the trick is to be alive and not deaden oursleves. Going through the motions leaves us, I think, with a wasted life. It isn't the emotions for me. It is the doing, the being.

I hear you Gilly. I do. When we only focus on one part of life we miss so much of what we are. It takes courage to live.

MaineCaptain wrote:John

I was not complaining, I personally love rain. WE have had ten weeks of nearly nothing but rain. I still love rain. Of course jokes are going around about how we have no idea what that big yellow thing in the sky is.

But I do hope you get a lovely soak soon.

And we got one. I have to give you all of the credit. My yard looks happy again.

itty wrote:The best part of life is living. Life is not pretty, plesant or happy. It just is. We live it regardless of what comes to us. I think the trick is to be alive and not deaden oursleves. Going through the motions leaves us, I think, with a wasted life. It isn't the emotions for me. It is the doing, the being.

I hear you Gilly. I do. When we only focus on one part of life we miss so much of what we are. It takes courage to live.

I agree with all of you. I don't believe one can expect to live a life free of tears. That's unrealistic. But we can make the best even out of the most uncomfortable of situations.

John A. Cancienne wrote:

And we got one. I have to give you all of the credit. My yard looks happy again.

I am glad your garden is happier

Thanks John. My own journey through cancer has taught me a lot. To take life as it is not how I want it to be. To find the joy and pleasure in life. To acknowledge the pain, when it comes, as part of life as just as beautiful to savor. I find something every single day that delights me. Today it is the neighbor downstairs. She rescued a baby bird. Fell out of the nest. It was a very bald little bird and no one here had an idea what sort of bird it was. So she dug worms and fed it. She cared for it and being an 'only bird' the little guy imprinted on her.

The bird turned out to be a starling. A very common bird here. Well, my neighbor has taken very good care of Birdie. He is feathered out and flying. He is outside now and stays right here in the yard. He has taken his cue from the other starlings and we see him eating the with the other birds after the worms and insects around the building. He is fearless. He flits up and sits on shoulders, gets finger rides and in general is a pretty cool little guy. He goes into my neighbors house and when he wants out he hangs on the screen. It has really been watch to watch this little guy grow up.

For me, that is life. That is joy. That is ordinary and every day. This life is exactly the one I want. I never wanted to be famous. I never wanted to do something earth shattering. I wanted to do what it is that I AM doing. Living my average, ordinary, everyday life. That is joy for me.

itty wrote:Thanks John. My own journey through cancer has taught me a lot. To take life as it is not how I want it to be. To find the joy and pleasure in life. To acknowledge the pain, when it comes, as part of life as just as beautiful to savor. I find something every single day that delights me. Today it is the neighbor downstairs. She rescued a baby bird. Fell out of the nest. It was a very bald little bird and no one here had an idea what sort of bird it was. So she dug worms and fed it. She cared for it and being an 'only bird' the little guy imprinted on her.

The brid turned out to be a starling. A very common bird here. Well, my neighbor has taken very good care of Birdie. He is feathered out and flying. He is outside now and stays right here in the yard. He has taken his cue from the other starlings and we see him eating the bird, worms and insects around the building. He is fealess. He flits up and sits on shoulders, gets finger rides and in general is a pretty cool little guy.

For me, that is life. That is joy. That is ordinary and every day. This life is exactly the one I want. I never wanted to be famous. I never wanted to do something earth shattering. I wanted to do what it is that I AM doing. Living my average, ordinary, everyday life. That is joy for me.

I don't know if I ever told you or not, itty, but my father died of cancer. My mother was his primary caregiver, but I was around to do most of the heavy lifting. Up until dad's final weeks actually, he was up and about doing the normal routine things he always did. That and more. He planted some blueberry bushes, knowing fully well he would never live to see them blossom, or produce. His notion was that someone would get some enjoyment out of them. Until the very end, his days were filled with the normal things he loved doing, as if his tomorrows didn't consist of a known expiration date. For me, when I see that silly little poem, I'm reminded of him. That gives me the courage to enjoy this day to it's fullest.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
And why couldn't they look well to this day? Do you not treasure each morning (regardless of your medical or financial situation) that you are given? Are there no accomplishments, or surprises in your life to be thankful for at the end of the day? If both of those answers are “no” then I pity you. Even though people struggle, and we can dig up as much ancient history as you’d like to dredge to describe human suffering, there is still joy to be found in our daily lives that bring meaning to us. You speak of someone suffering with cancer, who can only look forward to unceasing pain. This tells me that you haven’t visited many cancer patients. For those who are not yet called terminal, the urge to fight and win the battle is always in the front of their mind, and any small change for the better is a gift. For those who are terminal, a soft touch, and just company to keep them from being alone is something to treasure. I know of modern day struggles in the right here, right now where children are starving, lack proper medical care, drinking water, and education who still find joy in this day, and each day the divine allows them to encounter. It’s a mind set. It’s being determined to be thankful regardless of the situation for what you have in the here and now. Without such gratitude, how can one expect the blessing of a pure spirit to encounter the divine? Remember what it says…. Today if lived well. I don’t see where dwelling on the sufferings of others from the past is living well. I don’t see where focusing on the past, rather than doing what one can today to make someone’s tomorrow a better place is living well.

Is this the best argument you can produce?

"why couldn't they look well to this day?"

I gave lots of examples of people (Jews gassed etc) who were not able to look well to this day. As far as I can see you have dismissed my examples as having occured in the past without answering them. I can easily give modern examples but I see no point.

"Do you not treasure each morning (regardless of your medical or financial situation) that you are given?"

No. Not particularly! Should I? Life seems to be quite meaningless to me. I think there is some Shakespeare quote that expresses the samething. I do remember Steven Weinberg saying that more he studies the universe more he finds it meaningless. As far as I can see one just has to prepare for death as soon as one is born. Yes, there are little joys as you say. Should I go overboard because of those little joys?

Yes, this is the best argument that I can come up with. I just do not find that piece of poetry to be realistic. I do see that the majority in this board holds a different opinion.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Then (and this is only my opinion) you have no gratitude, and you need to find
your solace elsewhere. Don?t look for it in some spiritual plane if your
physical plane has no gratitude for this day given to you.

I find this statement very puzzling. Gratitude to whom? Who is giving me this day? You have to be more clear on this point. How do you know that there is no solace in some spiritual plane?

John A. Cancienne wrote:
And your point?!

The point is that I may have made a mistake in translating Aparoksha anubhuti as spiritual experience since the word spiritual seems to be used for some kind of mental experience.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Something tells me I should feel honored.

Why??? Who???

gillyflower wrote:
The poem appeals to me and I have not always had a good life (whatever you think that is). I have had pain and experienced other types of suffering. We could take a poll if you like to ask if people who do suffer pain, and suffer in other ways, who have had unhappy things happen in their lives if they still can enjoy each day they are alive. I know I do, even though I know that people and animals have suffered and died for several million years if not a little more than that.

I don't really understand your fear of pain. Is there a reason you fear it so much? Pain is part of life and despite occasionally feeling pain, I feel joy in each day, too. If this is all I get, then I am going to wring every bit of enjoyment out of it I can. To do less, IMO, is an insult to the Divine.

Different people have different tastes. I am glad that the poem appeals to you. It doesn't to me. I think the poem offers false comfort.

You have written that you are "going to wring every bit of enjoyment out of it". I am glad that you want to do that. You should do what you think is best for you.

I do have a question for you. Why do you think that 'To do less, IMO, is an insult to the Divine.'?
Please explain!

John A. Cancienne wrote:

itty wrote:The best part of life is living. Life is not pretty, plesant or happy. It just is. We live it regardless of what comes to us. I think the trick is to be alive and not deaden oursleves. Going through the motions leaves us, I think, with a wasted life. It isn't the emotions for me. It is the doing, the being.

I hear you Gilly. I do. When we only focus on one part of life we miss so much of what we are. It takes courage to live.

I agree with all of you. I don't believe one can expect to live a life free of tears. That's unrealistic. But we can make the best even out of the most uncomfortable of situations.

I agree that we can. As the lyrics in a Rocky Horror song go, "There's a light in the darkness of everybody's life."

I found at least 2 Shakespeare quotes that seem to me to be very close to what I am saying:

1. All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

2. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


West's greatest dramatist tells the unvarnished truth without the false comfort of this poetry.

gangajal wrote:

John A. Cancienne wrote:
And why couldn't they look well to this day? Do you not treasure each morning (regardless of your medical or financial situation) that you are given? Are there no accomplishments, or surprises in your life to be thankful for at the end of the day? If both of those answers are “no” then I pity you. Even though people struggle, and we can dig up as much ancient history as you’d like to dredge to describe human suffering, there is still joy to be found in our daily lives that bring meaning to us. You speak of someone suffering with cancer, who can only look forward to unceasing pain. This tells me that you haven’t visited many cancer patients. For those who are not yet called terminal, the urge to fight and win the battle is always in the front of their mind, and any small change for the better is a gift. For those who are terminal, a soft touch, and just company to keep them from being alone is something to treasure. I know of modern day struggles in the right here, right now where children are starving, lack proper medical care, drinking water, and education who still find joy in this day, and each day the divine allows them to encounter. It’s a mind set. It’s being determined to be thankful regardless of the situation for what you have in the here and now. Without such gratitude, how can one expect the blessing of a pure spirit to encounter the divine? Remember what it says…. Today if lived well. I don’t see where dwelling on the sufferings of others from the past is living well. I don’t see where focusing on the past, rather than doing what one can today to make someone’s tomorrow a better place is living well.

Is this the best argument you can produce?

"why couldn't they look well to this day?"

I gave lots of examples of people (Jews gassed etc) who were not able to look well to this day. As far as I can see you have dismissed my examples as having occurred in the past without answering them. I can easily give modern examples but I see no point.

You gave examples of some truly rotten situations. However, nothing you gave as an example tells me that these people didn't find some appreciation for each day they had.

gangajal wrote:"Do you not treasure each morning (regardless of your medical or financial situation) that you are given?"

No. Not particularly! Should I?

Then you truly someone to be pitied.

gangajal wrote:Life seems to be quite meaningless to me. I think there is some Shakespeare quote that expresses the something. I do remember Steven Weinberg saying that more he studies the universe more he finds it meaningless. As far as I can see one just has to prepare for death as soon as one is born. Yes, there are little joys as you say. Should I go overboard because of those little joys?

Showing appreciation for seeing another sunrise is going overboard??? Well then excuse the hell out of me!

gangajal wrote:Yes, this is the best argument that I can come up with. I just do not find that piece of poetry to be realistic. I do see that the majority in this board holds a different opinion.

Yes they do. Isn't a shame that most of the world isn't as cynical as you? Just look at all of the people out there having appreciation for what they have in life, regardless of how little it might be. Imagine someone who is facing death still living life to it's fullest rather than sitting in a corner cursing it. Damn all of those people who can rejoice at life itself.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Then (and this is only my opinion) you have no gratitude, and you need to find
your solace elsewhere. Don?t look for it in some spiritual plane if your
physical plane has no gratitude for this day given to you.

gangajal wrote:I find this statement very puzzling. Gratitude to whom? Who is giving me this day? You have to be more clear on this point.

If you believe in a deity, then perhaps it's that deity. If you believe in nothing at all, then just being grateful not to have moved into oblivion for one more day. There's not any particular someone or thing needed to express gratitude. Just being happy to be alive, and being grateful for the opportunity to live is not a requirement for a religious belief.

gangajal wrote:How do you know that there is no solace in some spiritual plane?

Most religions teach that in order to receive blessings from a deity, first one has to appreciate the gifts given in order to receive more. Consequently, gratitude plays a large role in the religious ideology of most belief systems.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
And your point?!

gangajal wrote:The point is that I may have made a mistake in translating Aparoksha anubhuti as spiritual experience since the word spiritual seems to be used for some kind of mental experience.

Conventional wisdom generally dictates that you know what you're talking about before trying to engage in a conversation. In this case, you've not only misrepresented your religion, but in all of your comments since, you have not given a very good impression for us to go on concerning how you believe. Why would we want to consider learning about a religion that leaves it's followers as dismal as you? Atheism doesn't even give off that sort of impression.

John A. Cancienne wrote:
Something tells me I should feel honored.

gangajal wrote:[Why??? Who???

(shrugs)It's just that you don't seem the type that would agree with anyone in principle, much less acknowledge it to them.

Are you basically getting at non-attachment, gangajal? I haven't been following this thread closely so I'm a little out of the loop.

Long Chen Pa said: "Since everything is but an apparition, perfect in being what it is, having nothing to do with good or bad, acceptance or rejection, one may well burst out in laughter." I use this quote a lot.

gangajal wrote:I found at least 2 Shakespeare quotes that seem to me to be very close to what I am saying:

1. All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players;
They have their exits and their entrances,
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

2. Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.


West's greatest dramatist tells the unvarnished truth without the false comfort of this poetry.

A quote from King Lear? So this is how you see life? Just one tragedy following another? It was a play.... a dramatic piece.... not real life, ganga. You might do well to find out if all Shakespearian actors feel the same.... I'm sure you'd see that they don't.

Be depressed! Be very depressed! Then die! to paraphrase that bit of Shakespeare.

Somehow I don't think many people look at life like that.

It is sad to view life that way, and in my opinion an injustice and a tragedy.

There is much sadness and ills in life, but there too is much beauty and joy. Beauty is all around us all we must do is open our eyes and heart to see it.

Joy is something, yes, we must often work on, but yes it is there. And those who suffer are just as capable, sometimes more so, in seeing the majesty that is our life in this world.

My life is not what I want it to be, but I still make every day something I can smile about, sometime I must work at that, but it happens.
And although I may be becoming the crazy cat lady, just resting with my beloved cats can bring me so much joy I could burst.

Life wants to be loved and enjoyed. There is much to that, but it should be never forgotten.

I'm getting the sudden urge to don a hair shirt and engage in a bit of self flagellation...

Gorm there is just something about you I like, but you are weird