I can't "disprove god", . . . so I'm the "idiot".

I love it when a christian calls a person an "idiot" when they state that it isn't for them to "disprove their claim". What do they really think makes sense with that way of thinking? I mean, . . . come on!

Nothing like some of St. Paul's recommended love, huh?

Apparently, they've never heard that the burden of proof is upon the person making the claim.

except Faith isn't really subject to evidence hence why we call it Faith

It does depend on who started it.

It pretty much depends on the intent. If you, an atheist, is attempting to convince me, a Pagan, that there are no gods the burden of proof is on you. If I, a pagan, am attempting to prove that my gods exist, the burden of proof is on me.

If you are demanding that someone surrender an existing belief because of the strength of your argument, the burden of proof is on you. If someone is asking you to surrender existing belief on the basis of their argument, the burden of proof is entirely on them.

I just don't see the point of trying to convince someone else that there are gods or how many. Either the gods will supply each person with enough proof or they won't.

While it's commonly said that faith doesn't need evidence, I'm more inclined to Mark Twain's view of faith:

There are those who scoff at the school boy, calling him frivolous and shallow. Yet it was the school boy who said, Faith is believing what you know ain't so. [emphasis added]
-Following the Equator, Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar

OMMV, of course.

Well, I'm not an atheist, but I guess I just have to wonder how someone can assert a christian doctrine, yet be so vile and offensive [language, insults] while doing so. It is hypocritical.

Anyway, what do you think about this "evidence for his god"?
* The Earth is round, not flat as once believed (Isaiah 40:22).
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
* Field of Gravity (Job 26:7).
* Biological importance of blood to life (Leviticus 17:11).
*Statements consistent with Paleontology. For instance, several books in the Bible refer to dinosaurs. Job 40:15 and 41:1 speak of two such creatures.

Just curious.

And I agree that each person should be able to decide which god, gods, goddesses they want to believe in, . . . but that's is dependent upon their ability to be polite and not offer up threats of some eternal bad luck.

Anyone who feels the need to offer proofs for his god must have a pretty weak god

Anybody who needs to disprove someone elses god(s) must secretly fear them.

Honestly, life is to short to worry about other peoples beliefs. Its not like we all have our own lives perfected.

You said it, brother

I have never understood why some Christians think the bible is proof of their god or anything else. What happened to "Don't believe everything you read!"

John and All: You guys deserve hugs for those posts!

John T Mainer wrote:Anybody who needs to disprove someone elses god(s) must secretly fear them.

Honestly, life is to short to worry about other peoples beliefs. Its not like we all have our own lives perfected.

Hmmmmmm. . . . . . . . I wonder if that has some validity to me. I was so indoctrinated, most of my life, that now that I'm walking away from it, there's a small part that worries about "consequences". But I know that I can't condone many of the biblical accounts, nor even the main christian doctrine of "a blood sacrifice". . . . so I fight against those who believe it. I could be stiffling my spiritual advancement by continually fighting with them. It is something to think about.

Well you know Deavon, one of the keys to changing to a new religion is dealing with the crap of the old religion. Heaven, hell, what people assert is true without thinking about it, all that is a part of it.

In my tradition, have a - wait a minute, I don't think anyone would mind if I posted:

The Affirmation of Acknowledgment:

I: I acknowledge the presence of other faiths* on my planet, indeed, right here in my city/town/village. I acknowledge that the followers of these faiths feel as strongly, maybe more so, than I do about mine.

II: I forgive the other faiths and wipe clean the slate between us. I cannot hold a person responsible for the acts of their faith, I cannot hold a faith at fault for individual practitioners. It is not my place to convert, or otherwise alter a person's religion. I invite discussion of beliefs without judgment of those holding them.

III: I acknowledge that I may be wrong, and I have found comfort in the fact that I may be right.

http://www.cuew.org/affirmation.html

#2 is the one I struggle with. Almost constantly. Bad experiences.

Yeah, I can see that. And it makes me a bit maddened when I see the old religious themes I once believed. . . . and the way these people promote it as "either believe it or you make your own place in the eternal hell". They teach this stuff to their kids and warp THEIR minds like mine was warped. . . . . . . I mean, MY GOD, I'm 41 and have residual "fear that I'm disappointing the big heavenly dad"! Perhaps that is the reason why I find myself on these sites [like the latest one on YouTube that caused this thread] and making comments that piss off christians . . . . .or [again] in the latest debate, a "christian". Seriously this guy cusses worse that I do and constantly berates me. Body of Christ, my ass.

DeavonReye wrote:

John T Mainer wrote:Anybody who needs to disprove someone elses god(s) must secretly fear them.

Honestly, life is to short to worry about other peoples beliefs. Its not like we all have our own lives perfected.

Hmmmmmm. . . . . . . . I wonder if that has some validity to me. I was so indoctrinated, most of my life, that now that I'm walking away from it, there's a small part that worries about "consequences". But I know that I can't condone many of the biblical accounts, nor even the main christian doctrine of "a blood sacrifice". . . . so I fight against those who believe it. I could be stiffling my spiritual advancement by continually fighting with them. It is something to think about.

It is a branch point in your personal development when you realize you reject the path you had been placed on. It is good to say that you don't believe in this, that you reject this; it is a mistake to say you are opposed to it. Rather than turning against a path that is wrong for you, turn towards a path that is right for you.

Perhaps you will find a path that suits you better, or perhaps you will blaze a trail that others may follow after you. In any case, let it be because you believe in the road you are following, not that it runs in opposition to what you rejected. You will find it easier to hear the shining voices calling to you when you stop shouting against the shadows you have rejected.

Well said John.
It’s entirely too easy to get caught up in a verbal battle of opposition with someone who has expressed to you that you are following the arch enemy of their religion. You find after pages of posts that you are, as John so eloquently put it, shouting at shadows.
A lesson I have recently been reminded of.

DeavonReye wrote:...I was so indoctrinated, most of my life, that now that I'm walking away from it, there's a small part that worries about "consequences". But I know that I can't condone many of the biblical accounts, nor even the main christian doctrine of "a blood sacrifice". . . . so I fight against those who believe it. I could be stiffling my spiritual advancement by continually fighting with them. It is something to think about.

Perhaps you'll find as I did, Deavon, that it takes a long while to get over your anger at your former faith, and even anger at yourself for feeling guilty about being unable to justify believing its teachings anymore. Indoctrination does that to a person oftentimes. That's part of the early stages of moving away from what was to what-the-hell-will-work-for-me-now.

Fighting with them will do no good any way you look at it. You know they're simply going to dismiss you as speeding along the fast lane to hell.

Why not expend that energy exploring various faiths and belief systems to see if you can find one that suits you better?

DeavonReye wrote:Well, I'm not an atheist, but I guess I just have to wonder how someone can assert a christian doctrine, yet be so vile and offensive [language, insults] while doing so. It is hypocritical.

Anyway, what do you think about this "evidence for his god"?
* The Earth is round, not flat as once believed (Isaiah 40:22).
* Atmospheric circulation (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
* Field of Gravity (Job 26:7).
* Biological importance of blood to life (Leviticus 17:11).
*Statements consistent with Paleontology. For instance, several books in the Bible refer to dinosaurs. Job 40:15 and 41:1 speak of two such creatures.

Just curious.

And I agree that each person should be able to decide which god, gods, goddesses they want to believe in, . . . but that's is dependent upon their ability to be polite and not offer up threats of some eternal bad luck.

He's confusing apologetics with evidence for God's existence. Those passages may be evidence that ancient Hebrews were not as primitive as believed by some; and that other passages were mere figures of speech or colloquialisms- 4 corners of the earth, rising and seting sun etc...

Good words, you all.

Dave, he wouldn't address such things. . . . like "hail stones stored in heavenly storehouses for times of battle". He would just mock.

John, Ottr, and Dot, . . . it has been a tough deconversion at times. I'm glad that I, at least, have a brother and sis-in-law that blazed a trail before me into the earth based religions. Maybe I SHOULD begin to limit my focus on my old religion . . . . and start looking for what will work for me. . . . . . . maybe "the old religions", if you know what I mean. Hehehe Anyway, thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread. I was getting pretty upset yesterday, . . . not feeling that I was wrong, but the way this hypocrite was talking trash while defending a faith that would be abhorantly against such language.

Most Christians I've known were decidedly un-Christian in their haste to condemn others.

Hang out here with us. We'll help you along the path to perdition, and you'll have a helluva lot more fun along the way, I guarantee.

I enjoy fun as much as the next guy!

Thanks!