Post in "Satan winning the battle for souls?" thread...

[DeavonReye]

In the Christian forum I frequent, someone posed this question, "Is Satan winning the battle for souls?" The thread was, of course, filled with various responses, but here's the one that was just recently given:

The original post:

God wills that every soul be saved and come to heaven. Satan wants every soul to come to hell and spend eternity with him. Being that the Bible says that a large majority of people will go to hell, is Satan winning the battle for souls. Is God ok with losing this battle? Thoughts?

A Christian's response:

That boils down to how weeds are weighed against wheat.

How about that, you give a ton of gold to win 100 tons of trash?

No offense, I think that it's about quality over quantity.

This is how some christians see "the lost".

[gillyflower]

Well, it is also reflects how they view other people, doesn't it? To some Christians there's "us" and then there is all the homosexuals, feminists, people of color, non-Christians (sometimes that includes people who are surprised to discover they've just been kicked out of the religion), the Democrats and pro-choicers who aren't wanted in life. Why would they want them in their heaven?

PS Isn't funny how one's god often reflects one's own opinion?

[DeavonReye]

True! I used to be so in to Christianity, . . . but that post is probably what most think. I know that it is common to hear, from Christians, that "they deserve to spend an eternity if Hell for their sins", . . . so if someone "rejects Jesus", . . .then they deserve what they get. They "rejected God", . . . you know, that "thought crime" which is FAR worse than a child rapist who just happens to "ask Jesus to be his savior before being dying".

And these are the same people who openly state how they "love everyone", . . . nice way to show it, huh?

I don't agree with everything that atheists say, but I've recently viewed some YouTube videos that really bring up unmistakable points against the religion and what it says about their god. Even if I WANTED to return to Christianity, . . . I don't think I ever could, in a real way. My mind has been opened up too much.

[DeavonReye]

Here's another thing, gilly. I'm heterosexuals, Not a feminists (because I'm a guy, but am for equal rights), not a person of color (although "white" is a color), AM non-Christians (sometimes that includes people who are surprised to discover they've just been kicked out of the religion), the vote Republican (though the line is a bit dull between the two, these days) and only slightly pro-choice. I prefer that life of all types (including the wayward spider in my apartment) is preserved. I wish no ill will upon anyone who isn't ill willing me. I'm a very good person. Yet my only "crime" is not being able to "believe", or "have faith". And that makes me trash?

[gillyflower]

Read my signature. That is my point of view.

[DeavonReye]

Yes, . . . I have seen your signature before, . . .and found it to be a good one!

That signature makes a very important point that most Christians would scoff at (meaning they allow their indoctrination to cloud what is being said). They would consider it "the doctrine of devils".

[TPaine]

The Christians got the word Gehenna from Ge Hinnom or the Valley of Hinnom which is a real valley below the Southern gate of ancient Jerusalem. Some Jews believed that children were sacrificed to the god Molech in that valley in ancient times, which made it an evil place but not a hell. The residents of Jerusalem used the valley as a garbage dump. There is not now (and never was) a belief in eternal damnation in the Jewish religion. It's hard to know where the Christians came up with the concept, but a couple of possibilities would be Zoroastrianism or possibly Greco-Roman mythology.

One would think that it would be considered degrading to their omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent god to believe that he could be outmaneuvered and outsmarted by one of his own creations (Satan), and thereby lose the majority of his followers to eternal damnation.

[MaineCaptain]

One would think that it would be considered degrading to their omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent god to believe that he could be outmaneuvered and outsmarted by one of his own creations (Satan), and thereby lose the majority of his followers to eternal damnation.

TPaine I have said similar on various boards (Christian), and I am beginning to think the cognitive dissonance has eaten away the brain of some of these devotees, because they never seem to understand that. It is as if one is speaking a foreign language.

[DeavonReye]

As they do not understand it on the christian board of which this thread mentions. Completely oblivious to the concept that, if God cares about everyone, and wants that NO ONE perish, . . . yet the overwhelming magority of souls never accept Christ, then his adversary is "winning". A horrible plan to set up, in my opinion.

Saying that, one would have to actually believe that the current christian doctrine of all of this is actually true. I have come to the place where I no longer do.

[Guest]

Deavon. Yours is just one of the many reasons I turned away from Christianity in 2000 when I was 55 years old. There were numerous other reasons as well.

[gillyflower]

It just never made sense to me. I'm sure it does to some people and I'm happy for them.

[Guest]

It's hard to know where the Christians came up with the concept, but a couple of possibilities would be Zoroastrianism or possibly Greco-Roman mythology.

Actually, the word Hell is derived from the name of the Nordic goddess of the dead.

Hel ("the Hidden" from the word hel,"to conceal") is the Norse goddess
of the dead, ruler of the nine worlds of the Land of Mist, Niflheim or Niflhel,
located in the far north-- a cold, damp place that is home to frost giants and
dwarves. The name Hel was applied both to the Queen of the Underworld and the
land itself, and it is thought that the land gave the Queen Her name. In the
late Christianized form of the myth, when Hel became Hell, she was said to be
the daughter of Loki, who was
equated with Lucifer.
In appearance She is said to be a fearsome sight: She is described as being
piebald, with a face half-human and half blank, or more usually, half alive and
half dead. It is told that when She was born, disease first came into the world.
She was said to sweep through towns and cities bringing plague: if she used a
rake, some would survive; if a broom, none would.
When the beloved Baldar was killed through Loki's treachery, the entire world
begged Her to release him from death. Hel agreed, but only if every creature on
earth truly mourned for him. So beloved was Baldar that everything--gods,
humans, animals, trees, stones--wept for him. All except an old giantess, called
Thokk, who was Loki in disguise.
Hel in a reading can represent a time of simultaneous endings and beginnings,
the point at which the circle is completed. She can also indicate integrity, as
opposites unite to form a stronger whole.
http://www.thaliatook.com/AMGG/hel.html

[DeavonReye]

Very interesting info, John.


Here's another post from one of the fundies, who is obviously a ridged 5 point Calvanist:

God is winning. He's getting all of the souls we wants to get.

Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.

Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.

Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.

I had to respond with the following:

So, . . . then God plays favorites? Are you saying that God DOESN'T want to win me? Wow, . . . . so then, by default, God WANTS me to burn in Hell, . . because he doesn't want me. He CHOOSES to make BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of souls, . . .but really only wants a small fraction of them? And you're okay with this???

I can't believe that I used to be so fundified myself, years ago.

[TigersEyeDowsing]

Sucks, don't it.

[DeavonReye]

Yeah, it kinda does. But it really makes me wonder how any person could believe that "God only chooses certain people", . . . . yet they somehow believe that THEY ARE one of "the chosen"! But also, how someone could ever think that such a god, who chooses in this way, is a god worth loving and serving, when he sends the majority of souls to suffer for all eternity. WOW, . . . .

[TigersEyeDowsing]

Palmtree is the only Calvinist I've ever met who was perfectly comfortable with her theology and sated that she may or may not be chosen and there's no way to tell. Usually, ask a Calvinist and he's sure he's one of the chosen, naturally.

[Guest]

Very interesting info, John.


Here's another post from one of the fundies, who is obviously a ridged 5 point Calvanist:

God is winning. He's getting all of the souls we wants to get.

Everyone is a sinner by nature and choice (of course, because actions are the result of nature). Everyone by default chooses themselves over God. Not a single one is righteous; all have fallen away; all of that stuff.

Then God is merciful enough to save some of us from our sins (ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set). The elect are chosen in accordance with the perfect will of God. And Jesus himself says that he will lose none of them several times throughout John.

Therefore, God can't be losing to Satan if he's winning everyone whom he wants to win.

I had to respond with the following:

So, . . . then God plays favorites? Are you saying that God DOESN'T want to win me? Wow, . . . . so then, by default, God WANTS me to burn in Hell, . . because he doesn't want me. He CHOOSES to make BILLIONS AND BILLIONS of souls, . . .but really only wants a small fraction of them? And you're okay with this???

I can't believe that I used to be so fundified myself, years ago.

This remark...(ie. the ones God called before the foundations of the world were set) sounds exactly like TheMadHprseman.

[Guest]

Palmtree is the only Calvinist I've ever met who was perfectly comfortable with her theology and sated that she may or may not be chosen and there's no way to tell. Usually, ask a Calvinist and he's sure he's one of the chosen, naturally.

Here's the part I don't understand about the Calvinist.... they believe in this thing about predestination. Some, regardless of how church going you are, or how much you follow the precepts of the religion; some of these are going to hell. It' been determined already. And on the flip side, a person can be as wild and reckless as they want, and still get into heaven. I just don't understand it.

[TigersEyeDowsing]

Palmtree is the only Calvinist I've ever met who was perfectly comfortable with her theology and sated that she may or may not be chosen and there's no way to tell. Usually, ask a Calvinist and he's sure he's one of the chosen, naturally.

Here's the part I don't understand about the Calvinist.... they believe in this thing about predestination. Some, regardless of how church going you are, or how much you follow the precepts of the religion; some of these are going to hell. It' been determined already. And on the flip side, a person can be as wild and reckless as they want, and still get into heaven. I just don't understand it.

I think is supposed to be a kind of catch-22; if one is 'called', there's a much better chance he'll feel it and be a part of the True Church.

[sacrificialgoddess]

Did all this go on on B'net, or some place else?

[DeavonReye]

No, . . . on christianforums dot net.

I like to go shake things up a bit. Get a load of this guys next post to me:

Nope. He does not delight in the deaths of the wicked, and He wants everyone to be saved. But, due to Original Sin and its resulting actions, no one wants to choose God. Everyone has betrayed a good God. Here's more bad news: Every single person who has ever lived deserves to burn in hell for ever and ever. The reason: no one is good; everyone sins. So God chooses a man to make his nation on Earth (Abram). Note that he didn't pick some other guy (perhaps in Egypt). Why? Because it was his plan. God does everything in accordance with his perfect will. You've got to realize that salvation is for the glory of God, not for the glory of man. So God saved who he wanted to save for His glory. The rest..well, He let them do what they wanted to do. And I'm afraid their destination is Hell.

[MaineCaptain]

Posts like that and others I saw over there, leads me to believe christianity is an evil religion. How anyone could consider a god good when he makes people that are all bad.

It is people like that, that scare me.
No regard for the beauty of life. Life is beautiful all life, and precious. Nothing deserves to be in hell

[DotNotInOz]

I can't understand either how anyone can believe in predestination today.

Centuries ago when Calvinism originated, it was more understandable that the doctrine would be appealing. Social classes then were much more distinct in various cultures, and you almost invariably were stuck for life in the class to which you were born.

Life was short and fairly harsh for most people, so a God who chose arbitrarily as did their social superiors was easier to understand and accept as "just the way it is" than such a deity is today.

[gillyflower]

Calvinism was fairly easy for me to believe. You were either one the chosen or not and to me that meant I might as well not worry about it. Besides, the bible version of heaven with everyone standing around Yahweh singing about how wonderful he was wasn't appealing at all. How boring! And for eternity too. Unimaginably boring! I thought if I was Yahweh I'd pick the fun and interesting people to spend eternity with rather than the no-fun lemon sucking group, but hey, it was his call and if he wanted that set, well.... see below.

My parents did not believe in hell, especially for non-believers. They felt that everyone went a decent place, one that they would find comfortable. I hoped to go to a place that was entertaining and fun and didn't care if that was near Yahweh or not.

[Chokmah]

Ancient Israel conceived of a place called Sheol, a dark and gloomy place, to be sure, but no elements of punishment were attached to it.

As far as Satan winning the battle for souls, this would seem rather ghoulish and it would make Jesus and Satan equals. This dualism would mean that Jesus is not One with the Father at all, but rather a servant of the Father just like Satan. It would also mean that Jesus' mission to Earth was a failure, not a good thing for a god.

It would also mean that the only meaning our lives would have would be as prizes, or a ways of keeping score for the two lesser gods, Jesus and Satan. Judaism was filled with lesser gods, angels, demons, and of course Satan.

So as modern humans we must look at Satan in a psychological way, or as an archetype embedded deep in our collective psyche.

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