Hell created for the Devil and his angels - Fundi-Christian Hell doctrine.

I don't know what I believe; I have more questions than answers. But only Jesus' story mentions torments-all the rest of scripture implies purification-I am just asking if they can be reconciled.

Davelaw wrote:I don't know what I believe; I have more questions than answers. But only Jesus' story mentions torments-all the rest of scripture implies purification-I am just asking if they can be reconciled.

Dave, this is outside my belief system, but looking at your question logically wouldn't it make sense that the fire that purifies would also be painful and torment the person during the time the purification was taking place? One would think it would take longer to purify Pol Pot than it would to purify Gandhi, so Pol Pot's torment would be longer and therefore he would suffer more, based on the fact that Pol Pot was guilty of more evil deeds than was Gandhi. Just a thought.

yes, the difference would be the focus

also what makes you think that Ghandi's would be that much less? what he did to the Boer's is really just a matter of scale

Davelaw wrote:yes, the difference would be the focus

also what makes you think that Ghandi's would be that much less? what he did to the Boer's is really just a matter of scale

I'm not hard to please, switch Ghandi for Martin Luther King Jr. I was just looking for a non-violent protester to match with a genocidal maniac.

as far as I know MLK never killed anyone while with the British army; so that works for me

but Rabbi's speculate the few who are succumbed by their misdeeds (like a Hitler) may just burn up completely

Dave, it looks like your doctrines of Hell are different than the ones I was raised on. The views I've known were the "eternal punishment for even the least of sins". In other words, basically anyone who doesn't accept Jesus will be punished for an eternity.

From what I am hearing you say, the "sin" is burned away and what emerges is what exists for eternity in some other location than "the fire".

DeavonReye wrote:Dave, it looks like your doctrines of Hell are different than the ones I was raised on. The views I've known were the "eternal punishment for even the least of sins"..

Wow... it sounds like the church you were raised in failed to understand the point of the crucifixion, which misses the point of Christianity!

Biblically speaking, Christianity is not a religion of condemnation, but one of release. That's supposed to be the 'good news'.... that's what made the judgmental Saul become the impassioned Paul (who, btw, was described by the historian Josephus as a man who *breathed friendliness*..... what an amazing way to describe someone.)

DR, you know, a book you might really enjoy (and one of my favorites) is a succinct and accurate history of Christianity. In fact, that's it's name: "History of Christianity" 2000 years in one book; written by Paul Johnson. He writes very plainly with a non-biased eye:

http://www.amazon.com/History-Christianity-Paul-Johnson/dp/product-description/0743282035


I think you would find it a very eye-opening read. In the best of sense.

I may do that, thanks!

But what I was talking about was, "eternal Hell for the slightest of sin" IF that person doesn't accept Jesus as savior.

DeavonReye wrote:I may do that, thanks!

But what I was talking about was, "eternal Hell for the slightest of sin" IF that person doesn't accept Jesus as savior.

thats more like what happens to the followers of the Anti-christ when their name is not written in the Book

Again, I hear what you're saying, but I was always raised with the theology of any small "sin" will send you to an eternal Hell, unless you give yourself completely over to Jesus. No grey area here.

completely over? what the hell is that?

Jesus said accept Him as a small child would

LOL Dave. . . . . what it apparently is . . . is the wacko doctrines that I was raised in.

Just because I am curious, Deavon, what church was it?

Feel free to be as curious as you need, SG!

Assemblies of God is the denomination.

The doctrine of an eternal Hell doesn't even make sense for a Merciful God, a Loving Father. Jesus told us the story of the Good Shepherd, who left 99 sheep alone for awhile as he searched for the one lost sheep.. an eternal Hell is totally incompatible with this parable.

Then we have the teaching about Jesus descending into Hell to visit the souls in prison, to preach to them. Now why the hell would Jesus go to preach to souls who were to be tortured for all eternity? To taunt them? To redeem them maybe!?

Whenever I've brought up the "merciful god" thing, they always come back with "but he's also a god of justice". Which makes no sense, because it is completely UNjust to torture someone just for "not loving you". It's also very petty. It is said that "because god can't abide with iniquity" that people's sins have to "be forgiven before being allowed into god's presence", . . . but that didn't mean that the only OTHER place would be some "torture chamber". Either the christian god is merciful or he's not. "Mercy" and "torture chamber" do NOT equate.

that's where fire as purification comes in
plus Jesus seems to also view there being a short period of equalization

Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Yeah, Dave. . . . I've recently started thinking about this "fire" as more metaphorical, . . . as in the "refiner's fire". It burns out the impurities, leaving the pure metal. My statements are more along the lines of the doctrines/beliefs I was raised with all my life .. . . . . . . . which probably messed me up, in the long run.

DeavonReye wrote:Whenever I've brought up the "merciful god" thing, they always come back with "but he's also a god of justice". Which makes no sense, because it is completely UNjust to torture someone just for "not loving you". It's also very petty. It is said that "because god can't abide with iniquity" that people's sins have to "be forgiven before being allowed into god's presence", . . . but that didn't mean that the only OTHER place would be some "torture chamber". Either the christian god is merciful or he's not. "Mercy" and "torture chamber" do NOT equate.

Infinite punishment for 'finite' sins is not justice... it is brutality, it is 'evil'... my God is not an evil God. The gods of the Bible, the gods of the Fundagelicals.. those are 'evil' gods...

Dave mate, the original sounds fine with me. but about those who are truly mistaken, or just don't know? I'd think those people would go with a I'D vote for God rather than a vote for Hell Deavonreye, might be a lil sad evetually.

Heck who wants to live in horror continuously?

Maybe it's not Hell or Heaven. Maybe it's what we earn on earth and are supposed to suffer, or enjoy. after life on earth. Still, maybe we are all forgiven anyway. As so many say. I like that idea!!

(I like that better!!) I'd definitely go for that with a really Christian Guy,

I'm not sure what you mean that "I might be a little sad, eventually".

And just think, we haven't even got into Special Hell yet.

Sorry folks I'm coming from a different board where some things were and some weren't and that's as may be.

I'm sorry my previous post was so vague (because I obviously didn't go back to the start as my puter wouldn't let me.) I thought I was in a debate for hell vs. Heaven. Well If what I've heard about Hell is right I don't really want to go there. Still Heaven may be a lil starchy for me too. There doesn't seem to be any halfway house. Srange cos we have so many on earth.

I would have thought that sort of house would be God's way of helping we who keep doing wrong get through things.

Christians dedicate so much time to halfway this house, that house and the other, I find it really strange that God/Jesus wouldn't be in favour.

I personally was bought up a christian, because my mum wanted it. Now that I have a choice I believe in God, but I believe we are all born equally, Jesus supposedly said that. Most Born again christian churches in Oz (I must say), tell us no matter what our sins, we can be born again, as if we never sinned.

I believe all people are equal and have the right to live as they wish. I don't believe that a loving God would send one or other to burn in hell forever. Goes against the grain to me.

I believe that all will receive equality once our time comes. Yes Christian, Fundi, Witch, Black or White. Even those who like me now (deaf that is, who've never heard the word.) OK I have a cochlear implant now, but the Bible does say "heard the word" not "lip read the word, will be received equally!!

There is a mountain group of Christians who believe that this life is hell and when we die we all go to heaven. They are called the "no-hellers."