COMMUNICATION, How and Why men don't always listen to their ladies

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
My wife and I still have this issue. She will say something like. "My car needs to be washed". Which means, of course, that she want's her car washed. I will reply "OK", which means that I will add it to my list. <snip>

When we get to the point that my wife says "I guess I will just go and wash my car" Or "Where do we keep the car wash soap and sponge so I can go and wash the car myself", that means that I need to drop whatever project I am working on and go wash her car, because if I don't, I will have to listen to a week long lecture on how she washed her car, and how she might think about adding that in to her chores, but she is so busy that she doesn't know where she will put it.

This is a good example of manipulative communication, seems to me, if your wife's original intent actually is that she wants you to wash her car or see that it gets done. Rather than simply asking, "My car needs to be washed. Would you have time to do that for me soon?", this represents a "loaded" approach that can profoundly contribute to tensions and miscommunications.

Granted, we've all experienced this type of communication (and it's not only women who do it, I hasten to add!)

This former interpersonal communication teacher rears her head to yell, "Dammit! Quit playing psychological games and ASK directly for what you want."

I guess what I am wondering is if, unintentionally of course, you had been talking about how the floor needed to be cleaned for a while, and then when you hit the "I am going to go and clean the floor in five minutes after this show is over", he misinterpreted that to mean that you wanted him to clean the floor, and now.

I can see how SG's statement was misinterpreted, because I say things like this myself. In my case as probably in hers, it's primarily trying to peptalk myself into doing a job that I don't want to do and have been putting off for far too long. Perhaps I have the marital advantage here in that my husband walks with difficulty and can't possibly scrub a floor, not to mention being a professional procrastinator as much as I, so he understands immediately that I'm only trying to get myself motivated when I say something like that. (And further knows that I'm unlikely to succeed for another week or so...< sigh > But then my motto for years has been, "It's me or the house. Both of us can't look this good.")

What needs to be done is we men need to not assume that this is something that we are expected to act on, and gather more information if that part was left out, or unclear. Women need to understand that men to not have an intuitive understanding of what is expected and need to be more clear about whether they are talking to talk, or explaining something that they want action taken on.

Hear! Hear! A fine summation of the differences, I'd say, All. I'd only add that rather than trying to manipulate someone else into doing something for us, we need to request it of the other person outright. Manipulative gameplaying only muddies the communication waters unnecessarily and fosters resentment.

OmarKhayyam wrote:This whole thing is mostly cultural. But that only makes it MORE important. Women need to realize where this "fix or or forget it" attitude comes from. Men learn it EARLY. <snip>

I think most men learn this early in this culture. "Fix it" is what we DO. And if something can't be fixed it is a source of frustration and a symbol of failure. The very fact that your Lady HAS a problem IS a problem. And it is YOUR problem because she shouldn't HAVE any problems. You are supposed to "fix it" so she doesn't.

I agree, OmarK.

This is an aspect of social conditioning that I'd definitely like to see change. I think it puts an incredible burden upon men.

DotNotInOz wrote:
I can see how SG's statement was misinterpreted, because I say things like this myself. In my case as probably in hers, it's primarily trying to peptalk myself into doing a job that I don't want to do and have been putting off for far too long. Perhaps I have the marital advantage here in that my husband walks with difficulty and can't possibly scrub a floor, not to mention being a professional procrastinator as much as I, so he understands immediately that I'm only trying to get myself motivated when I say something like that. (And further knows that I'm unlikely to succeed for another week or so...< sigh > But then my motto for years has been, "It's me or the house. Both of us can't look this good.")


Hear! Hear! A fine summation of the differences, I'd say, All. I'd only add that rather than trying to manipulate someone else into doing something for us, we need to request it of the other person outright. Manipulative gameplaying only muddies the communication waters unnecessarily and fosters resentment.

I do peptalks too!!! A lot and honestly, sometimes, it doesn't work!!

We have a big problem in my house. My husband comes from a family that only knows manipulative communication. I'm always pretty direct unless I know the person I'm talking to doesn't communicate that way or just can't handle it. There is someone we have to talk around subjects with.....amazing but true. I really, really dislike having to read someone's mind, it does nothing but set me up for failure. I can't possibly meet their expectations if I haven't a clue as to what they are. Nor do I want to make someone guess what I want or need...sometimes even I don't know, how could they!

Unbelievably, to them, that means I think I'm better than they are or I think they're stupid. Defense mechanisms kick up in a way I've never seen, nor can I fathom the process. I don't know what to do other than keep myself out of discussions and never get into situations where I know it will present. I rarely do family functions anymore. I hang out with my kid.

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:
There are other issues that can arise as well, usually dealing with the appearances of the situation. I have found that my wife will notice things associated with cleaning before I will.

For example, she is on a schedule where she cleans the bathroom from top to bottom about once a week. She used to mention to me that she needed to clean the bathroom. I would look at it and ask why, it did not seem visibly dirty.

Her latest thing is asking me if I noticed that she cleaned X. The best answer I have found is "Dear, that I haven't noticed it is a testament to how nice and clean you keep it all the time". That seems to work.

Btw, All, I meant to add that I think that's a very effective and quite charming response.

P.S. Can I hire your wife to come clean my house?

Dot, where housecleaning on a consistent schedule is concerned ------>

I guess because no one took care of my Mum and me, I am of the mind that a "couple" should take care of each other. Not the man needs to do the work , or the women for that matter. But working together to solve the problems and support each other completely emotionally and in all the other ways.

I do accept that there is years of deprogramming for that to be possible. Although sadly, I have noticed there is a trend among some late teens to be takers not givers. And the boys I am thinking of have no intention of fixing anything for anyone but themselves. That is truly sad. (Of course there have always been a few like that.)
This of course is not across the board, but really bad with the few I have been acquainted with.

MaineCaptain wrote:I guess because no one took care of my Mum and me, I am of the mind that a "couple" should take care of each other. Not the man needs to do the work , or the women for that matter. But working together to solve the problems and support each other completely emotionally and in all the other ways.

I do accept that there is years of deprogramming for that to be possible. Although sadly, I have noticed there is a trend among some late teens to be takers not givers. And the boys I am thinking of have no intention of fixing anything for anyone but themselves. That is truly sad. (Of course there have always been a few like that.)
This of course is not across the board, but really bad with the few I have been acquainted with.

I agree with what you're saying. I'm in the same boat. I've always taken care of myself or someone else, so much so, that I rarely feel I have anyone to turn to when I need help, so I don't, I just take care of it. I fix everything.

I'm really worried about kids being taught personal responsibility. There are a lot of parents doing for their kids well into adulthood. There is a point when you must take care of yourself and those you love. For a few of us, that happened when we were still children which is just at messed up as kid's never having to take care of themselves.

I know what you mean, about children and responsibility. Children should be taught that in baby steps like everything else they learn, so that when they hit adulthood, they are prepared to take care of themselves with out stress or fear.

I think that children should be taught to help other people without being rewarded, too. I was given a lovely lesson when I was very pregnant with my second child. It was a bit of a struggle to get the garbage cans up and down the steep hill. Much to my surprise one of the neighbor girls did it for me one day and when I tried to thank her and reward her, she refused. She said she was required/expected by her family to help someone out each week because that was the neighborly thing to do and she was happy to lend a hand.

I got the strong impression that she was getting a little desperate about her Good Deed Doing for the week and that I was going to solve that problem nicely for her and did for some weeks to come.

It taught me to teach my children the same lesson. Helping others is something they should be taught.

gillyflower wrote:When I verbalize them, I don't want the man to fix it, I just want to talk about it because it makes me feel better to do that..

A good friend of mine requires the same. Her husband is VERY attentiive and one of the best hetero men I have ever met. However, he has no need whatsoever to analyze into minute detail, the full emotional ramifications of every situation. When my friend needs to do this, her husband actually tells her, 'it sounds like you need to call HappyKweer.' So she does and we break the situation down into it's respective parts, go over the full ramifications of each part on every single person involved in each situation, then put all of the individual pieces back together into the fully understood and complete whole. Enlightenment results. I call her when I need the same.

Her husband is one who views every situation rationally, in as far as analyze the problem and compute the solution. Whereas my friend and I, having very similar life histories, require FULL understanding of all emotional aspects of situations, in order to regain/complete the necessary emotional safety we must have to live.

I think much of this has to do with how the sexes are raised. Girls/women are allowed to get into the emotional aspects of themselves, whereas boys/men are not. ('Boys don't cry' messages and what not). My friend is so damn good at analyzing situations in this manner, that she is the business manager of a $5 million per year corporation, which means these abilities aren't just a nice thing to have, but quite USEFUL in the real world as well.

gillyflower wrote:Well, one of the problems in my experience is something John kind of alluded to. Sometimes, I have frustrating problems or situations in my life that don't have an easy fix. When I verbalize them, I don't want the man to fix it, I just want to talk about it because it makes me feel better to do that. Sometimes after I talk about it I realize that it's just going to have to take time or I have to think about it differently because it isn't going to change. Sometimes I just want to hear someone say "Oh, you poor thing." or otherwise recognize that my life has difficulties.

Some of the men in my life, get very upset with this because they can't fix it, and call them "frustration stories". They don't want to hear about it if they can't fix it or they can't tell me how to fix it. I think they need to learn that sometimes they don't have to fix it, they just have to be a friend and listen.

And here is where most of the problems of communication lies between men and women. Men "fix" things. They don't just mull them over and commiserate about them. Men can solve the world's biggest problems in less than 60 words. Women will mull them over in their heads first, totally distracted, and out of touch. Finally, they want to discuss the problem; not to come up with a solution, mind you, but to be sure everyone is aware of their distress. Once done, and the man commits himself to solving the problem, women become frustrated because they didn't want the man to fix it, dammit, they just wanted to vent!

Men fix things.... from world affairs to how to straighten out the boss, or adjust to a new co-worker. We're not good at just listening to someone vent without putting in our two cents. Fang has come to understand that if the problem does not require me fixing it for her to go to her female friends and drink coffee and talk it out. Men, as a rule will not discuss their problems with anyone unless they are out of fresh ideas, and need some assistance. The 60 word rule still applies.

I strongly suspect the actual figures I'm about to present is wrong, probably wrong on the conservative side, but I read where men during the course of a day speak somewhere in the vicinity of 2000 words. Women, on the other hand, speak over a bazillion. They are the communicators of the species. If women were to run all of the governments of the world, there's a better than fair chance army's would be obsolete; or at the very least, the weapons of choice would be words.

Men do listen, Gracie. It's just that our brains shut down on the 61's word, and we gotta start fixing the problem.

How do you get a guy to not only listen, but STOP a behavior? Mine is wonderful, yes, but overly helpful, and always wanting to "fix" things that aren't broken!

I keep telling him that I have a system, and it works, DON'T MESS WITH IT. Please stop trying to "fix" it!

We don't give up. Just let us do our thing and act like you're thankful.

But TED, I don't like it when my system is messed with! And I tend to freak out when it is. >.<

Seriously, WHY do men always feel the need to "fix" things, ESPECIALLY when there's nothing there to "fix"? It drives me insane!

Really, it's evolutionary, and it's just what they do. It's the caveman-survival-tactic of 'providing' whether it's really providing anything useful or not. They try to be innovative and therefore supportive. I dunno, it's sort of like asking a dog to stop lifting it's leg when it pees. You can try, but it's pretty much a built-in.

My grandfather was the same way, drove my grandmother up the wall at times but overall it was the best marriage anyone could've asked for. She just learned to pick her battles, and some things were worth freaking out over and some were just smile-and-nods, and eyerolls later. Yaknow, one of the crosses of heterosexuality is dealing with inherent traits of the opposite sex. Sometimes if something *really* is upsetting you can try to explain it and see if they can stop doing it, but overall it's just one of 'those things'.

I know he means well, but I'm tired of explaining that, no, I don't "need" to get this gadget, or change how I do that, or please just stop going through my things, I'm very particular about my stuff being touched and shuffled about. And for the love of god, STOP BITCHING ABOUT MY LIVING SITUATION, I LIKE IT JUST FINE! I know you don't like it, you've made that clear, but again, I LIKE IT, and it works for me. DEAL WITH IT!

I sometimes want to just grab a clue-bat and beat some sense into him. >.< Then I feel like I'm a bad person for feeling that way.

I've always thought healthy communication was important, and choosing battles wisely was too (as in, he should too with your living situation), but you obviously shouldn't take any kind of relationship advice from me, lol.

WMDKitty wrote:I know he means well, but I'm tired of explaining that, no, I don't "need" to get this gadget, or change how I do that, or please just stop going through my things, I'm very particular about my stuff being touched and shuffled about. And for the love of god, STOP BITCHING ABOUT MY LIVING SITUATION, I LIKE IT JUST FINE! I know you don't like it, you've made that clear, but again, I LIKE IT, and it works for me. DEAL WITH IT!

Okay, well, you say this guy's wonderful. Doesn't sound so wonderful to me.

Anyone who digs through my stuff wouldn't last long in a relationship with me. If there's one thing a Scorp values, it's our privacy...and I'm a triple-Scorp!

Sounds like he's either insecure or a controller...maybe both.

If you were Dear Abby and someone wrote to you asking your advice, saying what you said here, Kitty, would you answer that this relationship is worth sustaining? (Btw, you needn't answer that question here by any means...just something to consider.)

No, he's not controlling at all. Just... it takes a lot of explaining to get through, sometimes, and I'm not always the best at that.

I live in a garage. I know it's far from ideal, but it works for me, and I see no reason to change it until I can find an affordable apartment. Everything I've found around here is $600+ a month, and I wouldn't have enough left to pay the bills after that, let alone EAT.

$350 (plus a bit extra for cable & internet, shared with housemates) isn't all that bad, really.

It just really frustrates me when people try to "fix" things, either without asking me if I want it fixed, or considering my situation. I neither want nor need extra gadgets (in this case, an induction cooking surface) -- I have plenty I've already accumulated, and don't have room for more! (And have ZERO cooking skills, beyond "pop it in the nuker for a few minutes" -- he dropped that one after I explained that I can burn water.)

I LIKE the dark, cave-like environment, it helps with the sensory processing issues I have.

And I don't like change. I REALLY don't like change. Once I'm settled in and comfortable, that's it. Don't fuck with it. So part of this is probably me being a stubborn Gemini. >.<

Other than occasionally being a silly git (see above), he really IS wonderful. Even my parents like him! (Considering past relationships, this is a good thing.) And the only thing he's REALLY pushing me on is to communicate my feelings, instead of just letting things build up until I snap. That's something... new... to me. I'm used to just retreating somewhere safe until I feel like I can handle things again.

When I'm with him, I feel safe, content, loved. My anxiety decreases, my body relaxes. He's so gentle and caring, sometimes I just want to cry. I don't feel like I deserve it!

He actually respects it when I say I need space! Again, all he asks is that I communicate my needs.

I think half of the communication issues are on my end. I'm kind of a "fix it" type of person myself, and he's more of a "talk it out" type of person -- not something I'm used to at all! And when something works for me, when I have a system in place, I don't like having it messed with, it's one of those things that provokes serious anxiety for me. I really do have to have things "just so", and change -- if any! --
needs to be gradual, and anticipated well in advance. Hell, just starting a relationship was a major change for me! I just wish I could explain that to him, without sounding like either a total head-case or a major dick.

I'm just going from what you said here and from how I'd feel about a guy who kept trying to "upgrade" a living situation that suited me as well as going through my personal things without my express permission.

Still seems to me that if this guy were all that wonderful, he'd respect how you choose to live and wouldn't touch your things without your permission if he really values you as you are.

But what do I know? I'm not you, and I don't know him. If he suits you, that's what counts.