COMMUNICATION, How and Why men don't always listen to their ladies

So much to say with no time.

This is my reminder to myself to go back through and read the posts again in the morning.

all

I can't speak for all women, but I find that it really helps to talk things through, even if the friend or gentleman does nothing except "really listen". It allows one (me) to know that what I say has value, and it really helps me work through things, sometimes I actually figure out the solution on my own, just voicing it to a compassionate ear.

If not, it helps me release the problem, so I can forget what can not fix.

And I would do the same for another.............. Listen.



And I know this is going to make me sound amazingly stupid, but does not a person, want to listen to the one they love? Maybe I am just naive.

No, you aren't naive. Men just need to remind themselves that they are doing a genuine service for their loved ones when they surrender the need to fix and do and just listen. It is an act of love. Just as much an act of love is for a woman to hold the man's tools while he fixes something. There may be a hundred other things she'd rather be doing but she knows that he wants to perform in front of her.

I've approached it with both men and women that I "need a wall, please be a wall for me" and that means that I just want to bounce things off them, just see what happens, they don't have to do a thing.

Thank you Gilly. I appreciate that. I have been told on more then one occasion I am too emotional, but what I am being accused of is caring.
Which is what I do.

MaineCaptain wrote:

And I know this is going to make me sound amazingly stupid, but does not a person, want to listen to the one they love? Maybe I am just naive.

It's not that the man doesn't love the woman he is with... it's just that they really are different. Women are usually much more verbal than men... and men want to "do"... or fix the problem.

Here's an example... I have two kids.. a daughter and a son. When I'm with my daugther... we talk.. or more accurately ..she usually talks and I usually listen. Oh.. we might go for a walk.. get something to eat...etc... but it's all about talking... that's how we bond. I will admit.. at times it takes a LOT Of patience for me to just sit and listen.... and it's NOT that I don't love her of course.. but... I REALLY want to help her with whatever it is that is bothering her. But I've had to learn to bite my tongue at times.

With my son.. it's all about doing. We kick the soccer ball around.. play catch... play basketball... or get out the instruments and jam. That's how we bond. Not that we don't talk.. but it's just not the same as it is when I'm with my daughter.

Neither is better or worse. They are both wonderful. But it just goes to show how different men and women are.. imo...

And women also need to understand the difference.. not just men.


Rob

I very much understand there is a difference, and am very happy to work with those differences. And I am happy to comply with what is needed to make any relationship work.

You have to let us know ahead of time that you are just venting. If you bring to us something and introduce it with the statement that it is hurting/scaring/worrying you, then we are already reaching for our tool box to fix it.

It may be obvious to any woman with half a brain that you just need to talk about it, but if you don't actually say that, then when you drop a problem in our lap and tell how much it hurts you, we are fixing it before the first echo comes off the kitchen wall.

Men are not women with half a brain, men are not women of any kind. We each speak the same language, but use different dictionaries. Keep it simple and declarative because the subtext may as well be in Yiddish; either we don't get it, or it means something different to us.

I do the same to my wife all the time, where I will make a simple statement that obviously can only mean one thing, only to find out that she agrees it can only mean one thing, but something else entirely. You cannot trust the unspoken appositives will be heard, or that "the obvious" implications are drawn.

When I say I will do something, I do it; always. My wife is still surprised that I actually follow through on the promises I have made, even when life throws roadblocks in the way. To me it is unthinkable that I wouldn't still be bound. To my wife it is unthinkable that I would be.

John T Mainer wrote:If you want to talk about problems with me, and seek solutions, then I am all over it. If you simply want to mentally masturbate by wallowing in all your woes, honestly, I will tune you out each and every time.

If you make a decision, follow it through aggressively, do not start mentally second guessing yourself to the point that you have spent more energy worrying about whether it was the right call than you have left to spend applying the solution you chose. Failure at that point is usually the result of dithering, not choosing wrong. I will tune you out when you are wasting time and energy undercutting the decisions you have already made. I will not contribute to your failure....

This is so man-like, John. And I don't mean that critically. I just mean that it is such a characteristically male way to look at problem-solving.

Deborah Tannen's book, mentioned above by Genocon, is excellent in its explanation of how very differently men and women approach problem-solving, IMO. Tannen discusses this characteristic distinction in detail.

Men assume that they're being asked to provide solutions to the problem when what the woman wants is someone's help with clarifying her feelings about the problem so that she can get past feeling distressed about having a problem and can determine a solution herself.

Bizarre though it likely seems to you, a woman probably isn't "undercutting" herself worrying about whether or not she chose the right solution. What she's doing instead is demonstrating that she feels unsupported emotionally.

Men frequently fail to understand that what a woman wants and needs is emotional support rather than solutions to the problem.

I've gotten to where I will ask my husband just to listen while I talk through how I'm feeling about the problem. That way, he knows that I only want encouragement and reassurance from him. When I truly want his suggested solutions, I'll say something like, "Okay, now I'm ready for your ideas" if I want those. Oftentimes, simply venting my feelings is enough to get me thinking clearly enough that I can figure out how to solve the problem myself.

John T Mainer wrote:You have to let us know ahead of time that you are just venting. If you bring to us something and introduce it with the statement that it is hurting/scaring/worrying you, then we are already reaching for our tool box to fix it.

The thing is, John, she IS letting you know that what she wants is emotional support rather than your solving the problem for her.

All the words you used in reference to her approach statement are "feelings" words--hurt, scared, worried.

The disconnect comes when men leap to solve the problem because that's how they're wired: Problem exists ----> Specify nature of problem ----> Consider possible solutions. -----> Solve problem.

Whereas women throw in another step: Problem exists -----> Sort out feelings about having problem to be solved ----> Determine precise nature of problem -----> Consider possible solutions -----> Solve problem. (Sometimes, women will then consider how they feel about the chosen solution, which men tend to interpret as agonizing over the problem when what the woman is actually doing is deciding whether or not she's dealt with her feelings about it adequately.)

There are times I ask my wife if she wants me to kill and eat whatever it is she's having trouble with, just to find out if she's wanting to vent or seriously wants my input. While she vents, I often ask questions so I'm prepared for the contingency that I do need to kill something.

Look, ladies, when we men are in our caves, puttering around painting on the walls, belching and scratching freely, if you interrupt us, there should be a good reason for it. Like fresh food to kill and eat. Or sex. Or a tummy rub. Or a nice, long back scratch that gets all the little itchy places to cease and desist.

[insert caveman emoticon here]

I'm not sure you meant that the way it sounds!

I don't know...how does it sound?

Does it sound utterly ferocious? Huh? If it does, then that's exactly how it should sound!

No, it sounds like what you are saying is if there is no physical payoff for the man or he can't fix it, don't bother him. Of course, there are many people who feel exactly like that about other people's problems.

I'm glad that I put that reminder in there.

Dot said pretty much along the lines of what I am thinking, but I want to add my perspective too.

Really we men are simple creatures. We look at life like this.

Problem exists------->fix problem.

What I have found as the way that my wife looks at life is like this.

Problem exists-------->How does problem make me feel?----------->Why does it make me feel this way?---------->Is the problem something that I can fix?---------->Yes. Fix problem
|__________>No. How can I control my emotions so that I can learn to live with the problem?

There are other issues that can arise as well, usually dealing with the appearances of the situation. I have found that my wife will notice things associated with cleaning before I will.

For example, she is on a schedule where she cleans the bathroom from top to bottom about once a week. She used to mention to me that she needed to clean the bathroom. I would look at it and ask why, it did not seem visibly dirty.

Her latest thing is asking me if I noticed that she cleaned X. The best answer I have found is "Dear, that I haven't noticed it is a testament to how nice and clean you keep it all the time". That seems to work.

As to solutions to these issues, it's not a matter of "Men need to understand that women want X when they say X" or Women need to understand that men are like X". Both sides need to work on this. For example, I will agree that SG's husband was overreacting, but, I also have to wonder if there aren't times where similar phrased statements are meant to initiate immediate action?

My wife and I still have this issue. She will say something like. "My car needs to be washed". Which means, of course, that she want's her car washed. I will reply "OK", which means that I will add it to my list. Which means that I will put it on my list of things to do (mental list), which includes other things like mowing the lawn, planting/weeding the garden, painting the shed, cooking dinner on the grill, and yes, even ironing.

Now, as we know, there are only so many hours in the day. If I have more to do that day, or week, I probably won't get to washing her car immediately.

If she comes to me after a couple of days and says "My car really needs to be washed" that means that it is something I need to today, bumping other things that I might have planned. However, I am a stickler for finishing a task. Whatever project I am working on right now is the project that I am working on now, and the car will wait until I get that done.

When we get to the point that my wife says "I guess I will just go and wash my car" Or "Where do we keep the car wash soap and sponge so I can go and wash the car myself", that means that I need to drop whatever project I am working on and go wash her car, because if I don't, I will have to listen to a week long lecture on how she washed her car, and how she might think about adding that in to her chores, but she is so busy that she doesn't know where she will put it.

I guess what I am wondering is if, unintentionally of course, you had been talking about how the floor needed to be cleaned for a while, and then when you hit the "I am going to go and clean the floor in five minutes after this show is over", he misinterpreted that to mean that you wanted him to clean the floor, and now.


I guess what I am getting at is it is rarely as simple as "Men want to fix, women want to talk". If it was, this would be a non-issue. Simple creatures though we are, we could have figured this out by now. The problem is that sometimes women want to talk, and sometimes they want the problem fixed, and we are supposed to know which is which. Talking about something is not something that is alien to a man's mind, we do it ourselves. Although we usually do it while we are fixing it, but it's not that hard to stretch. If anything, we have figured out that in the absence of the information regarding whether or not we are expected to act, it is better to act, and then apologize later for our misunderstanding, than to not act when we are expected too. It is the lesser of two evils.

What needs to be done is we men need to not assume that this is something that we are expected to act on, and gather more information if that part was left out, or unclear. Women need to understand that men to not have an intuitive understanding of what is expected and need to be more clear about whether they are talking to talk, or explaining something that they want action taken on.

all

PS

SG, did you get my email? I've been having issues lately, and will resend if I need too.

I believe Dot and Gilly very well expressed my feelings on the subject.

I love that men want to fix it, that is beautiful and wonderful. And sometimes it is just what I would love to happen. But it is so nice to be heard by that special person, just heard.

And as has been noted by Rob, it happens and if women are clear it is successful. A caring man wants to help. Sometimes the biggest help is just to listen.

By the way everyone, I could not be happier with everyone contribution is aiding my understanding. There are differences clearly.
But caring people (Both men and women together) can work with those and sometimes around them.

Thank you and carry on. I know there is much more to learn

gillyflower wrote:No, it sounds like what you are saying is if there is no physical payoff for the man or he can't fix it, don't bother him. Of course, there are many people who feel exactly like that about other people's problems.

Did you miss the part where I speak of listening to her vent? Or just the caveman emoticon?

Ah, well, that'll teach me to try to levitate...er, add levity to a discussion.

I shall now exit the thread.

Seventhcrow, that's why I asked you what you meant. When you asked me what I thought I was reading, I responded honestly. I don't mind the caveman emoticon (for some reason it isn't showing up on my browser) or the levity. This is perhaps another example of men and women misunderstanding one another?

Sometimes it boils down to expectations and not voicing or explaining what we expect or need from each other. We can vocalize what we expect out of our president, but can't seem tell our spouse what we need or expect from them. No one is a mind reader.

And sometimes that request is interpreted as --- you don't think I'm good enough or --- you think your better than me.

Recently my wife got defensive when she suggested an alternative to the running battle with our middle daughter over her math problems. When she told me about her idea I said simply "Right, lets give that a shot."

Somehow she was so expecting me to defend my idea to the death, that she couldn't take my response to her idea as anything but refusal. I thought it was dead simple as a statement that I liked her idea better than what I had tried less than successfully, and thought we should try implementing it now.

Actually both seem to be working. Hers had so much less drama for the same effect, but no way in hell was I going to think of it. I slept with her for her body; I wouldn't have married her if I didn't respect her brains, and love her strength.

John T Mainer wrote:Recently my wife got defensive when she suggested an alternative to the running battle with our middle daughter over her math problems. When she told me about her idea I said simply "Right, lets give that a shot."

Somehow she was so expecting me to defend my idea to the death, that she couldn't take my response to her idea as anything but refusal. I thought it was dead simple as a statement that I liked her idea better than what I had tried less than successfully, and thought we should try implementing it now.

Actually both seem to be working. Hers had so much less drama for the same effect, but no way in hell was I going to think of it. I slept with her for her body; I wouldn't have married her if I didn't respect her brains, and love her strength.

You had no emotional investment in the idea - your or hers - it was just an idea, like brainstorming a way of doing something. I'm totally with you.

We really are better at doing than being.

Zen is not your friend?

sacrificialgoddess wrote:Zen is not your friend?

Zen can be hard to find some days.......

Thank you Omar and John. I do appreciate what you are saying. And it means a lot to me that you can explain these things.

I have not been fortunate enough in life to have anyone want to fix my problems. I think I would rather have the man who wants to fix everything over the "I don't give a darn type", any day.