What do you believe?

*giggling*

"1. She too believes that we all have the same goal - oneness with the God (her god) - in this life, she hopes. All paths lead to that, in her belief. How is this different from yours?"
I don't believe the goal itself is God. I'm a Hindu. I believe the goal as a Hindu is to reach moksha. Moksha can happen in this lifetime. I didn't say that we all have the same goal (Christians want to get to Heaven, Hindus want Moksha, Buddhists want Nirvana, etc, etc, etc) I said that I believe all spiritual paths lead to the same goal. Meaning, that I think that, if a Pagan wanted to reach moksha they could do so through their path, they don't have to be Hindu first. If a Hindu wanted to reach Heaven (which is why I was mentioning the Hindu version of the heavenly realms) that they don't first have to convert to Christianity, Islam, Judaism. If a Christian decided they wanted to get to Nirvana, they don't have to stop being a Christian. Ultimately, though when I typed "I believe all paths lead to the same goal" I was thinking more like the mystics (or whatever the path may call such types) who all seem to reach this similar kind-of, I don't know how to describe it....but like they have discovered something similar and it shapes who they are. They didn't change religions, they didn't stop doing the practices of their religion...and yet they reached a kind-of awareness, a type-of existence in this life, right now, that seems the same. And so when I typed "I believe all paths lead to the same goal" that was more of what I was thinking. I don't expect that you want moksha, but if you did I don't believe you have to become a Hindu or adopt Hindu practices to get there either.

"You believe that we are all worshipping your god through our gods, so does she."
I never said that I believe you are worshipping my god through your gods. My god is Ganesh. Ganesh is part of the Divine, an unique energy just like us....except that Ganesh is without form. There are vibrations that connect us to this energy which come from repeating the name. The Divine is something from which the gods and goddesses emerge from, energies. What the Divine is, exactly, I'm not sure. Currently I believe it is consciousness and Ganesh, Isis, Kali, Ameratsu, you, me, rocks, trees, this keyboard I'm typing on, etc are all energies that emerge from It. Some have form (like you, me, the keyboard, rocks) some do not have forms (Ganesh, Yahweh, Shiva, Ceridwen, etc). I worship this Divine through Ganesh because I can contemplate Ganesh, I cannot contemplate the Divine.

"3. What is the goal in your opinion?"
As I said previously, I think it's that sort of existence or awareness that has been achieved by the many mystics of the myriad of paths...these mystics seem to converge at or on something. I'm not sure what exactly it is...but I think that in this life that is the goal that all paths lead to....but I also believe that each path leads also to the paths it talks about, too (moksha, nirvana, summerlands, etc)

"4. You call your god the One, she calls her god God. She sees all gods as different facets of her god, you see them as different manifestations of your god. How is this different?"
I do not call my god the One. I call my god Ganesh. The One, The Divine...this is what I call what Hindus call Brahman or more specifically Nirguna Brahman (Brahman without attributes). Brahman translates from Sanskrit as "expanding awareness". Your friends God and Ganesh, etc are all Saguna Brahman (Brahman with attributes). I don't necessarily think of it as different facets, but more like different energies that emerge from this Oneness, this Void (to use the term that is translated by Buddhist authors), the Nothingness-That-Somethingness-Emerges....The Mystery, The Divine. I don't think when your friend talks about "God" that she is talking about "Ganesh". Although in the English language I have noticed that the word "God" which is a proper name in Judaism and Christianity is also a term used for say, Ganesh, or Nirguna Brahman, or The Void, and even the Tao in Taoism. This, of course, complicates the word. Anyways, the reason I don't think this is because Ganesh is one energy from the Divine, "God" is another energy from the Divine...If someone is talking about Sam I do not assume they are talking about Sally...they are different energies of the Divine. They are rooted in the Divine and the Divine is in them, but they are different energies. I'm a follower Dvaitadvaita-Vedanta Philosophy (Advaita Vedanta says its all one. Dvaita Vedanta says it's all two. Dvaitadvaita says it's two in one and one in two and two in many and many in one). I have no problem with the complexities and contradictions in the thinking...I'm a Hindu I'm just trying to contemplate the Divine in whatever way I can grasp it.

"I think I understand that both you and gana are assigning her god a lower status than she would assign him."
Nope, I wouldn't assign her god a lower status than she would. Although she might my god. I'm a Hindu! All gods are equal. The point is made over and over again in Hindu scriptures that all the gods worship each other and they don't want us fighting amongst ourselves as to who is higher and who is lower. Over and over again the point is constantly made that all gods are equal. Hinduism breaks it down into Devas and Asuras. The Devas are the energies like Ganesh, Shiva, Vishnu, Kishna, Ram, Kali, etc. Asuras are often translated as "demons" by western scholars...but that really places the wrong kind of image in western readers minds as there have been Asuras that have done very goods things and Devas who have behaved badly. Interestingly enough, one of the first religions to split from Hinduism is Zoroastrianism (in fact Zoroaster is mentioned as a teacher in the Vedas) and the term for the celestial beings is Asura...and yet Hindus don't call Zoroastrians "demon worshippers"...in fact Hindus live comfortably side-by-side with Zoroastrians who live in India. Your friend, on the other hand, would probably say that Ganesh is a lesser god than hers, that hers was the supreme god...but I don't believe there is a supreme god. There is just gods who are waves of energy from the Divine and us who are waves of energy from the Divine and rocks, trees, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc which are all waves of energy from the Divine.

"I believe that we are all part of the Divine, in my religion. That includes leaves, rocks, spiritual beings and plastic bottles. I believe that none are more important than any other species or item. The Divine for me is literally everything. The Gods are separate beings, just as humans are separate beings but we are all part of the Divine, which may be panentheistic or pantheistic."
In this we agree! I am both panentheistic and pantheistic. The Divine is the universe and the universe is contained in the Divine...simultaneously. As I said before, I'm a Hindu..it doesn't bother me if I can't fully rationally explain it....I'm just trying to contemplate the Divine in whatever way I can grasp it.

You know I like this topic. It really challenges me to better try to explain what I believe. I'm so used to talking to people I know and trying to shape what I believe using language from their path that sometimes it seems I get so used to doing that, that I forget how I actually understand what I believe. It's very refreshing!

I'm enjoying seeing the way you think, Gana! Much like myself.

It's refreshing not to be so alone.

Goals, that is either really easy, or really hard to define. The specific goals of the moment are by their ephemeral nature too numerous and changing to note effectively. The general goals are dead easy.

To raise three girls to be strong, wise, independent, and joyous.
To support my wife to the limits of my ability to understand where and what she needs.
To fight every day in every way to become better, wiser, and stronger.

I, too, agree with much of what you said, Gana. Very nicely explained.

Today, my goals are simple:
To get my computer that crashed this morning fixed (I'm on my mother's at the moment)
To get through tomorrow without forgetting to file anyone's taxes
To get enough sleep tonight so I can get through tomorrow
And to figure out how the heck I'm gonna survive without my computer until next week!! AAAHHH!!!

Goal???

Short term... meaning this manifestation of Life = Become a recognized Artist.

Long term... experience the other 98% of the Universe... The 98% Scientists say is missing from our known experience. (human knowledge of time and spacial dimensions)

No, some of that you don't want to know. Some of what I know, I would unknow.

The sight of your sixty year old little old lady neighbor with a strap on is both a) an image you can't ever forget, and b) more about her husband's tastes than I ever want to know about somebody that looks like Moses.

My ex bosses twenty minute exposition on his hemorrhoid experience......

Trust me there are some things man is better off NOT knowing.

John T Mainer wrote:No, some of that you don't want to know. Some of what I know, I would unknow.

The sight of your sixty year old little old lady neighbor with a strap on is both a) an image you can't ever forget, and b) more about her husband's tastes than I ever want to know about somebody that looks like Moses.

My ex bosses twenty minute exposition on his hemorrhoid experience......

Trust me there are some things man is better off NOT knowing.

The world is full of people who overshare, hmm?

ok,,,,bad visual there. REALLY bad.

You want bad visions? I used to live across the street from a little old man who would leave his window wide open and walk around nude. IN FRONT OF THE WINDOW! On purpose!

I would have to keep my shades shut, or I would die.

This was a nightly occurrence.

MaineCaptain wrote:You want bad visions? I used to live across the street from a little old man who would leave his window wide open and walk around nude. IN FRONT OF THE WINDOW! On purpose!

I would have to keep my shades shut, or I would die.

This was a nightly occurrence.

He was very proud. And I think he liked you!

Oh that sucks, Maine,,,,,,and there probably wasn't a thing the police could do about it either,,,,,,afterall, he was in his own home,,,,

stinks though, because FINE for him if he wanted to walk around naked, but HE should have been the one to shut his shades,,,

MaineCaptain wrote:You want bad visions? I used to live across the street from a little old man who would leave his window wide open and walk around nude. IN FRONT OF THE WINDOW! On purpose!

I would have to keep my shades shut, or I would die.

This was a nightly occurrence.

Why do I have this image of Mr. Burns being your neighbor?

Bet it turned you away from Brats for a while. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Excellent.

HailToTheSquirrel wrote:

MaineCaptain wrote:You want bad visions? I used to live across the street from a little old man who would leave his window wide open and walk around nude. IN FRONT OF THE WINDOW! On purpose!

I would have to keep my shades shut, or I would die.

This was a nightly occurrence.

Why do I have this image of Mr. Burns being your neighbor?

Bet it turned you away from Brats for a while. Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww!

It was pretty awful. And one of the things that made it worse, is that if he was not doing that, I had a nice view. And huge picture windows to enjoy it. But I had to close the drapes. This went on for over a year. Then he left.

And yes Holly all he had to do is close the shades. But he was an exhibitionist, he had the shade closed during the day and when he would disrobe he would open them. He would sponge bathe in front of the open window. "Ewwwwwwwwwwwwww!" really fits

Okay, I'm thoroughly grossed out now!!!

I've already posted a lot about what I believe, so I'll try to be brief.

As someone else said of themselves, I'm a monist too. I suggest that the innermost you, the Subject of experience, the Self, is all that there is, what fundamentally is, always was, never began.

I suggest that this world is one of infinitely many possibility worlds. The possibility worlds are possibilities, not actual or real. A person's life is a possibility-story. I've gone into some detail at the Hinduism forum, and maybe at the multifaith forum too.

The possibility worlds relevant to the Self are the ones that have life-forms, because each life-form is a possible center of perception, and, innermost, a "clone" of the same Self that is the innermost you.

But worldly life isn't the only mode of existence of the Self, or even its best or main mode of existence. Certainly not its real mode of existence. We were discussing that at the Death forum.

The real nature of the Self, and what there really is, Reality, is what we might perceive as "nothing". We discussed that a little at the Death forum. It's counterintuitive, from the worldly perspective, of course. Some of us agree that that "nothing" is actually pretty good.

I, too, believe in reincarnation, as an appearance. I don't believe that it's real, because I don't even believe that this world is real. As I said, lives are merely possibility-stories.

Just as some others have said, I don't like adversarial criticism of others' beliefs or opinions on these matters. Disagreement is fine, as long as it's polite. I don't think that anyone on these forums would tell others what they should believe.

As I've said, metaphysical or ontological positions can't be proved by verbal argument, though there are some considerations by which they can be verbally compared or evaluated.

MC: years ago, I lived in a condo. My mom made these lovely, billowy white curtains which I just loved. In any case, back in those days, when I came home from work, I used to whip off all my constrictive business clothes and have naked time (with the curtains closed.)

The guy in the condo next to me was always really friendly. But I wondered why his girlfriend would look at me and scowl....

... that is....


... until the time I went out at night to take the recycling out, looked up and saw that, by evening, my curtains became as transparent as could be.

(Naked time ended after that.)


In any case... getting back on topic