What do you believe?

Welcome ganapatikamesh happy to meet you

I think you haven't talked to Pagans! My afterlife is nothing like what you describe. I do not wish to spend eternity in some blissful state. I wish work to do, to be useful to the Gods, new adventures and experiences. I look to the afterlife as the Great Adventure. Many Pagans feel that we will be reborn in new bodies and come back to this world.

I don't think that all people want the same things in life either. Some people are content with little education and to do little thinking. Some people are helpful to others, some people try to amass as much power or money as they can. I look at other people and I see that we are very different. We have different interests, different passions and that is as it should be, eh? Do you look at other people and think they all like what you like, want what you want, think what you think?

I like that your Heaven it going to be that way - for you. It sounds like a pleasant place - for you. How does being reborn in new bodies in this world fit into your idea of what everyone's afterlife is going to be?

I still don't see how we all have the same goal. Could you tell me again that is? It is just fine with me that you believe this and continue to believe it. It sounds like a really nice thing to believe.

PS. I am not trying to be contentious. I have a dear friend who is Christian who also believes that we are all worshipping her god, we just call her god different names, and that we are all going to the same place after death. It is a variation upon what you think, simply substitute your god for hers. I don't understand really why it is important that we all want the same thing, worship the same god and go to the same place.

From the Lay of Vafthruthnir, stanza 40-41:

Say as eleventh ------ Where e'erliving men
slay each other with swords;
fighting they fall ----- then fare from battle
and drain horns together

All the einherjar ----- in Othin's garth
slay each other with swords;
fighting they fall ----- then fare from battle
and drain horns together

That is paradise for me. In Othin's hall, or fair Freya who receives half the einherjar (valliant dead), and contend each day on Vigrid plain, and revel each night in the shining halls. If a place in the shining halls awaits me, so too does Ragnarok, where I will earn my salt and place at the bench again by spilling my immortality on the ground with the enemy dead, to buy a future for my descendants that I shall never see.

I largely agree with Gilly, I genuinely do not believe we all "wind up" in the same "place". We all die, this much is certain and is the great equalizer among all of humanity. However, I do believe my gods are rather distinct and are not avatars, facets or any other sort of manifestation of a singular universal Godhead. I'm a hard polytheist, through and through.

I terms of a "final destination", my ancestors certainly traveled to Tech Duinn, what happened to them after this; whether they continued on to the otherworld, remained as guests or were reborn is largely conjecture on our part.

What is more important than that final destination is that one lives their life well.

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

What is more important than that final destination is that one lives their life well.

Yes.. exactly. But, unfortunately that gets lost with people who put so much emphasis on the "next life". Of course, that's typically a Christian/Muslim thing.

And when you put so much emphasis on the "next life", you devalue this life. Which, in my opinion, is the only life we will ever get.

Rob

"I have a dear friend who is Christian who also believes that we are all worshipping her god, we just call her god different names, and that we are all going to the same place after death. It is a variation upon what you think, simply substitute your god for hers. I don't understand really why it is important that we all want the same thing, worship the same god and go to the same place."

Okay, let me clarify what I believe (as this seems to be misunderstood due to your experience with your dear friend and what I actually wrote).
1) I believe that all paths lead to the same goal
2) the word goal should not be confused with the word place
3) I do not currently believe that the goal itself is an "afterlife", but is actually more likely within this life experience
4) I would not substitute my God with her God. Ganesh is not Jesus, Jesus is not Allah, Allah is not Ceridwen. I believe these are different manifestations of the sacred, with different energies. I believe that at the root of them all, though, there is One. What that is, I don't know. Hinduism often calls It: Brahman (which is Sanskrit translates literally as "expanding awareness"). Ganesh, Jesus, Allah, Ceridwen are the Saguna part of Brahman...the Brahman with "form and energy", but beyond this lies Nirguna Brahman...that which is without form, without energy, undescribable with language. Nirguna Brahman is similar to Tao in Taoic philosophy.

I too believe that we are all expressions of the One. Just like there is me, and then there is Barbara, that doesn't mean that I am Barbara, because we're different beings, but we are both expressions of the same energy. I see no reasons why gods should be different, and why they shouldn't be different 'people' but still expressions of the same energy.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I too believe that we are all expressions of the One. Just like there is me, and then there is Barbara, that doesn't mean that I am Barbara, because we're different beings, but we are both expressions of the same energy. I see no reasons why gods should be different, and why they shouldn't be different 'people' but still expressions of the same energy.

I believe... it's complicated. The answer to that, TED, would be both a yes and a no.

ganapatikamesh wrote:"I have a dear friend who is Christian who also believes that we are all worshipping her god, we just call her god different names, and that we are all going to the same place after death. It is a variation upon what you think, simply substitute your god for hers. I don't understand really why it is important that we all want the same thing, worship the same god and go to the same place."

Okay, let me clarify what I believe (as this seems to be misunderstood due to your experience with your dear friend and what I actually wrote).
1) I believe that all paths lead to the same goal
2) the word goal should not be confused with the word place
3) I do not currently believe that the goal itself is an "afterlife", but is actually more likely within this life experience
4) I would not substitute my God with her God. Ganesh is not Jesus, Jesus is not Allah, Allah is not Ceridwen. I believe these are different manifestations of the sacred, with different energies. I believe that at the root of them all, though, there is One. What that is, I don't know. Hinduism often calls It: Brahman (which is Sanskrit translates literally as "expanding awareness"). Ganesh, Jesus, Allah, Ceridwen are the Saguna part of Brahman...the Brahman with "form and energy", but beyond this lies Nirguna Brahman...that which is without form, without energy, undescribable with language. Nirguna Brahman is similar to Tao in Taoic philosophy.

1. She too believes that we all have the same goal - oneness with the God (her god) - in this life, she hopes. All paths lead to that, in her belief. How is this different from yours? You believe that we are all worshipping your god through our gods, so does she.

2. I'm sorry you think that I was. I believe that you said we were all going to the same place. We would just see it as what we expect to see. She too thinks we are all going to the same place. Goal - oneness with God. Place - the afterlife.

3. What is the goal in your opinion?

4. You call your god the One, she calls her god God. She sees all gods as different facets of her god, you see them as different manifestations of your god. How is this different?

I believe that we are all part of the Divine, in my religion. That includes leaves, rocks, spiritual beings and plastic bottles. I believe that none are more important than any other species or item. The Divine for me is literally everything. The Gods are separate beings, just as humans are separate beings but we are all part of the Divine, which may be panentheistic or pantheistic. I do not know what the goal is of the Divine or if there is one. The goal for me is to live the best life I can as a human and leave this world a little better than it was when I came to it.

TED - I believe that we are all made up of the same building blocks - atoms. I think though what you are saying is that we are expressions of the God, not all beings? Or since we are we are more holy? My friend thinks that. I believe that we all have a bit of the Divine in us (we are God), that everything does, but we are not expressions of the Divine, we are part of the Divine. Is that clear? Ed. to add: I may be reading into what you say because my friend the Christian Scientist believes that.

TED, what do you think that the goal is, in your religion or belief?

I follow the gods of my ancestors, who guided and protected the tribes of my people from their birth and will be with us until all are but dust and memory. They are the gods of my ancestors, they are not the gods of all tribes, nor does their lore tell us aught of the truth taught to other tribes and the covenants of other folk.

I can know the truth of my path, but my gods do not claim to offer the way for all peoples, nor does their teaching allow me to know the destination of the teachings of other faiths. I will not judge the sacral purpose of the teachings of other folk, nor are they competent to judge my own.

One thing unites all the tribes of man, we share this fragile orb. Much of the teachings of my gods relate simply to how we humans are to treat each other, that we may join together in harmonious community for he betterment of all. Much else of the teachings of our gods relates to honoring the land and waters that sustain us, the creatures and spirits that share it with us, and the sacred ancestors who gave it to us in trust for the generations to come.

The purpose of these teachings collectively is to aid us in living worthy lives, and pass this world on to our descendants that they may grow, learn, and become worthy in their turn. In this, the teachings of many folk, and many faiths, have lessons to teach us all.

After what I have learned and what I have learned about others, I can not put into words what I believe anymore.
Here's the best I can do.
I do not think the gods are aspects of one great big god. Any more then I believe all people are aspects of one big human.

I believe we are all connected somehow through energy, we are, after all, energy. I do not really believe the material world exists at all. It is just created like the holo-deck on Star Trek to give us a base to work off of.

I do not think we have an ultimate purpose, we come here to learn, to experience IMO. To learn from those experiences. Nothing more complicated then that.

I believe we come back until we have figured out what we want to and need to know, Or until we ask not to come back. Then we would learn, what we need some other way.

I believe more complicated things as well. I believe energy is in everything and everything has energy. I believe energy is aware.
Ever since I was a child, if I bump into something I would apologize. I still do, there is a reason.

Everything is alive in some fashion......... BOO!

spooky aren't I?

I'm not a proponent of a universal divinity, universal energy or any other such cosmological universalism, as I said I'm a hard polytheist through and through.

Aye, hard is the way to be alright

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I too believe that we are all expressions of the One. Just like there is me, and then there is Barbara, that doesn't mean that I am Barbara, because we're different beings, but we are both expressions of the same energy. I see no reasons why gods should be different, and why they shouldn't be different 'people' but still expressions of the same energy.

Wow - to me you just described Hinduism as viewed through the lens of Samkhya (the philosophy behind yoga) but without the purty Sanskrit.

I subscribe to the believe that everything goes back to Prakriti and Purusha - always separate yet always together. Prakriti is the 'nature' and Purusha is the indwelling; the 'spirit' Purusha brings prakriti to life. If anyone wants to read more about this, a brief synopsis can be found here http://www.hinduwebsite.com/prakriti.asp

I'm sort of the opposite of the Christian 'friends' mentioned as I believe the Christian deity is really Prakriti and Purusha

Rewinding, I was raised Lutheran (ELCA) and still very much enjoy playing flute in liturgical services. I don't consider myself to be hindu at this point as that was not my culture and I just don't know enough to call it "me"

... wow, look at these emoticons... what up with this one: LOL; that's not nice.

All right Sak, you believe her God is one thing but she doesn't believe that about her God. She believes that her God is the creator of everything from whence everything springs:

at the beginning of every cycle of creation, God brings them forth again 9.7

to quote that article you very kindly linked for us. I think I understand that both you and gana are assigning her god a lower status than she would assign him. She believes that the "God" mentioned in that line is her god, you think it is your god, the Manifest Brahman, if I understand it correctly. It just is the difference between how different religions view the gods of other people, I think.

What do you think your goal is?

gillyflower wrote:TED, what do you think that the goal is, in your religion or belief?

The goal! We all like goals. In my faith, the Ultimate Goal of study and meditation is to become Christed, or enlightened. We believe we are to become Christs - like Jesus supposedly/theoretically was, centered and poweful in the understanding of "I and the Father are one", at total at-one-ment with the Divine. (Atonement= at-one-ment). When Christed, we are/should be able to teach, to heal others of their sicknesses and dis-eases, and to use conscious application of spiritual law (or magic, if you consider it the same thing) to make people's lives better. We look at people throughout history who've been considered Christs, or Avatars, or Buddhas, or gurus, or what have you, and see that they apparently have reached the goal of recognizing their at-one-ment with the Divine. Though we use traditional western Christian terminology a lot of times, I don't consider is "Christ-o-centric" in the concept that we don't worship Jesus; we see him as a window, showing us the view of the Divine. The problem with religion is that windows show up to give us the view like Jesus or Buddha or an avatar, and people lose sight of the view through the window and, instead, start worshipping the window without looking through it.

Sakhaiva wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I too believe that we are all expressions of the One. Just like there is me, and then there is Barbara, that doesn't mean that I am Barbara, because we're different beings, but we are both expressions of the same energy. I see no reasons why gods should be different, and why they shouldn't be different 'people' but still expressions of the same energy.

Wow - to me you just described Hinduism as viewed through the lens of Samkhya (the philosophy behind yoga) but without the purty Sanskrit.

I subscribe to the believe that everything goes back to Prakriti and Purusha - always separate yet always together. Prakriti is the 'nature' and Purusha is the indwelling; the 'spirit' Purusha brings prakriti to life. If anyone wants to read more about this, a brief synopsis can be found here http://www.hinduwebsite.com/prakriti.asp

I'm sort of the opposite of the Christian 'friends' mentioned as I believe the Christian deity is really Prakriti and Purusha

Rewinding, I was raised Lutheran (ELCA) and still very much enjoy playing flute in liturgical services. I don't consider myself to be hindu at this point as that was not my culture and I just don't know enough to call it "me"

Yeah, I'm sure I've mentioned before to you, our faith is a mix of Hinduism and Christianity. I like it.

... wow, look at these emoticons... what up with this one: LOL; that's not nice.

LOL! But I like it..

gillyflower wrote:All right Sak, you believe her God is one thing but she doesn't believe that about her God. She believes that her God is the creator of everything from whence everything springs:

at the beginning of every cycle of creation, God brings them forth again 9.7

to quote that article you very kindly linked for us. I think I understand that both you and gana are assigning her god a lower status than she would assign him. She believes that the "God" mentioned in that line is her god, you think it is your god, the Manifest Brahman, if I understand it correctly. It just is the difference between how different religions view the gods of other people, I think.

What do you think your goal is?

I agree with you; I think people view things from personal perspectives.

Hmmm... what do I think my goal is..... I suppose it is to play my part best I can; keeping myself healthy so I can be more useful.

I don't bother myself with goals.

all

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I don't bother myself with goals.

all

My goal is to keep breathing as long as possible.

allthegoodnamesweretaken wrote:I don't bother myself with goals.

all

And all this time I thought your goal was to eat!

I think you have him there Beribee

Is that really a goal though?

Perhaps getting to the next meal?

Can it really be considered next if you don't pause between them?