Forgivness

This wasn't addressed to me but I'll answer it because I'm the one who made the doormat comment.

Sakhaiva wrote:
Being able to forgive is not being a doormat. Doormats do nothing aside from take abuse or sit by watching others being abused (doing nothing to help.) That is a different topic and has nothing to do with being able to forgive.

Read what I wrote. Forgiveness for it's own sake makes you a bloody doormat. I'm talking about forgiving because you believe that you are supposed to or because you think that doing so will make you a better person. If you don't demand from the offender a reason, a justification for your forgiveness you ARE doing nothing but taking the abuse. You're just doing it with a smile.

Sakhaiva wrote:
The best way to understand the word *forgive* is to look at it from a debtors point of view. Lets pretend that I loan money to my teenage son who is supposed to use it to buy a cheap used car. But instead he goes out and totally blows it. Worse, say he goes out drinking, gets into an accident and can never work again... has no way to repay his debt to me!!! So here we have a person who is already feeling like a fool and a failure... (ie, a person who shows true remorse) I ask you, what good would it be to hold his mistake over his head? What would it solve? Anything at all? Nothing that I can see; if I were the parent of this poor teenager, I would *forgive* him his debt, for life would have taught him enough.

Well that's a fairly exaggerated example, but lets review. He steals money from you (using money you provided him for a purpose other than that which was intended). He puts his own life and the lives of others in serious jeopardy. Yet he gets a pass because he got hurt doing it. Why? Because he feels bad that he got hurt? Because personal responsibility ends at personal injury? What if other innocent people got hurt in this accident? Should they and their loved ones simply forgive him because he got hurt too?

If I punch you in the jaw are you going to forgive me if I break my fingers doing it?

Sakhaiva wrote:
Now what's *super* tough is to forgive a person who doesn't think they've done anything wrong (they don't think they need forgiveness) That is very tough indeed.

It's also quite unnecessary and potentially very foolish as the wrongly forgiven may give you cause to 'forgive' them again and again.

wow... I totally fell behind in this conversation!


From reading through the different posts, the thought that comes to mind is this: I think people confuse *forgiveness* with the actions that follow forgiveness. Eg, if a man and woman divorce, they might forgive each other (which is great)... but that doesn't imply that they will get back together, or even see each other again.



Moving on (the course of action one chooses to take) is up to each individual.




Dromahair, in your example of punching me in my jaw... you exhibit unprovoked violence and no remorse. You have, in your example, painted yourself as a textbook abuser. You are forgiven as abusers are created out of their own sad misfortune.... but you would never be in my world again without proof of remorse (which is not simply saying 'I'm sorry)




Guys I have to get back to my 8th grader, who is stuck on his History lesson. (!!!) This is a worthy topic and regret I cannot give it the time and energy it deserves.

Divorces don't automatically imply that forgiveness is necessary. Nor that anger is present.

I've been tryin to get down
To the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think its about, forgiveness
Forgiveness,
Even if, even if, you dont love me anymore

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I've been tryin to get down
To the heart of the matter
But my will gets weak
And my thoughts seem to scatter
But I think its about, forgiveness
Forgiveness,
Even if, even if, you dont love me anymore

Don Henley?

Yup.

I'm partial to the Boy's of Summer; in fact I need both of those on my IPOD

Sakhaiva wrote:From reading through the different posts, the thought that comes to mind is this: I think people confuse *forgiveness* with the actions that follow forgiveness. Eg, if a man and woman divorce, they might forgive each other (which is great)... but that doesn't imply that they will get back together, or even see each other again.

No, I think you are confusing 'forgiveness' with 'pardoning'.

When you pardon someone you accept that they committed an offense against you and you move on without seeking recourse from them. When you forgive someone you essentially forget that an offense was committed at all - the offender is absolved of any guilt in the matter. The slate is wiped clean as it were.

Sakhaiva wrote:Dromahair, in your example of punching me in my jaw... you exhibit unprovoked violence and no remorse. You have, in your example, painted yourself as a textbook abuser. You are forgiven as abusers are created out of their own sad misfortune.... but you would never be in my world again without proof of remorse (which is not simply saying 'I'm sorry)

Yeah well, I've known "textbook abusers" and most of them were "created" by the propensity of their friends and family to forgive them their abuses. In your previous example, (forgiving the drunk-driving son because he's already been hurt enough) you paint yourself as a textbook enabler. Forgiveness has it's own consequences.

I think they are close to synonymous

par·don (pärdn)
tr.v. par·doned, par·don·ing, par·dons
1. To release (a person) from punishment; exempt from penalty: a convicted criminal who was pardoned by the governor.
2. To let (an offense) pass without punishment.
3. To make courteous allowance for; excuse: Pardon me, I'm in a hurry. See Synonyms at forgive.
n.
1. The act of pardoning.
2. Law
a. Exemption of a convicted person from the penalties of an offense or crime by the power of the executor of the laws.
b. An official document or warrant declaring such an exemption.
3. Allowance or forgiveness for an offense or a discourtesy: begged the host's pardon for leaving early.
4. Roman Catholic Church An indulgence.
[Middle English pardonen, from Old French pardoner, from Vulgar Latin *perdnre, to give wholeheartedly : Latin per-, intensive pref.; see per- + Latin dnre, to present, forgive (from dnum, gift; see d- in Indo-European roots).]

for·give (fr-gv, fôr-)
v. for·gave (-gv), for·giv·en (-gvn), for·giv·ing, for·gives
v.tr.
1. To excuse for a fault or an offense; pardon.
2. To renounce anger or resentment against.
3. To absolve from payment of (a debt, for example).
v.intr.
To accord forgiveness.
[Middle English forgiven, from Old English forgiefan; see ghabh- in Indo-European roots.]

I don't think it is necessary to pardon someone or forgive them unless it is #2 of the forgive definition. It is necessary to let go of the anger and hate after a certain amount of time to live a good life and that I don't feel is what most people are talking about when the say to forgive. Forgiving is all about the other person. Letting go anger and hate is all about yourself.

Gilly I agree with you. Those who abused me as a child I have no feeling for, I have in a sense forgiven them. Not for them, but for me, to survive.
And honestly I do not think the people in question would care one way or another.
And one of them I sadly fear may still be an abuser, but at my point there is nothing I can do to stop them, since I have no idea where they are or what they are up too, but I know his behaviour in the past.

I am indifferent to these people, no feeling at all. I do not think the word forgive really fits my lack of feeling towards them.

MaineCaptain wrote:Gilly I agree with you. Those who abused me as a child I have no feeling for, I have in a sense forgiven them. Not for them, but for me, to survive.
And honestly I do not think the people in question would care one way or another.
And one of them I sadly fear may still be an abuser, but at my point there is nothing I can do to stop them, since I have no idea where they are or what they are up too, but I know his behaviour in the past.

I am indifferent to these people, no feeling at all. I do not think the word forgive really fits my lack of feeling towards them.

You've let go, maybe?

I think you are right SG

I glad that you were able to let it go, MC. There is no way on earth you can make people like that pay enough.

Thank you Gilly, If it wasn't that I remember it,(like watching a movie) it is like it never happened. I have been very blessed to have been able to let it go.
I agree with everything else you said as well

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:The idea of forgiving, of the importance of repenting of past wrongs, and the giving of those who have been wronged the duty of acknowledging the repentence of the transgressor, is a central belief in many religions, and many cultures in general.

How central is the idea of forgivness to you? To your tradition? Is it important, do you think it is over rated?

I think it is important to protect your own integrity, but at the same time forgiveness isnt as much for others as it is for yourself! It is an act of unconditional love within your own being, a gift you give yourself. If you forgive easily, you also forgive yourself easily! Now on that same note if I find myself spending a lot of energy forgiving some one (energy vampires per say) I just limit my contact and carry extra stones to protect myself....

MaineCaptain wrote:Gilly I agree with you. Those who abused me as a child I have no feeling for, I have in a sense forgiven them. Not for them, but for me, to survive.
And honestly I do not think the people in question would care one way or another.
And one of them I sadly fear may still be an abuser, but at my point there is nothing I can do to stop them, since I have no idea where they are or what they are up too, but I know his behaviour in the past.

I am indifferent to these people, no feeling at all. I do not think the word forgive really fits my lack of feeling towards them.

You know I openly forgave my uncle for his abuse as a child! It was such a spiritual awakening for me, it appeared it was all I could talk about with him. It was so great to me to just freely talk about it gleefully..strangest thing I know. But he slowly stopped talking to me, I think he liked the forgiveness but obviously somehow I wasnt letting him forget it. I am not sure why I am sharing this really, maybe it is because I had a good point I lost somewhere...

Oh yes, forgiving I believe is just a form of letting go and everyone has find out what suites them best.