Forgivness

The idea of forgiving, of the importance of repenting of past wrongs, and the giving of those who have been wronged the duty of acknowledging the repentence of the transgressor, is a central belief in many religions, and many cultures in general.

How central is the idea of forgivness to you? To your tradition? Is it important, do you think it is over rated?

I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

Is the inability to forgive then a moral failing?

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

Is the inability to forgive then a moral failing?

Like all steps to enlightment, forgiveness is for our benefit, not for the person's we need to forgive. If we fail to forgive, we fail ourself, which we often do anyway.

When you forgive someone, you help yourself.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

Is the inability to forgive then a moral failing?

Like all steps to enlightment, forgiveness is for our benefit, not for the person's we need to forgive. If we fail to forgive, we fail ourself, which we often do anyway.

What is it one fails, in the refusal of forgivness? The internizilation of bitterness and grief which often accompanies those who maintain ill feelings towards those who have wronged them?

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

Is the inability to forgive then a moral failing?

Like all steps to enlightment, forgiveness is for our benefit, not for the person's we need to forgive. If we fail to forgive, we fail ourself, which we often do anyway.

What is it one fails, in the refusal of forgivness? The internizilation of bitterness and grief which often accompanies those who maintain ill feelings towards those who have wronged them?

Yes, and on the flipside of the same emotions, the denial of love/compassion that should be exended to all people.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

Gorm_Sionnach wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I think it's so central because forgiveness is an act of love, and lovingkindness is the central core or at least a very core concept of many religions. Because of my path therefore, it's very important.

Is the inability to forgive then a moral failing?

Like all steps to enlightment, forgiveness is for our benefit, not for the person's we need to forgive. If we fail to forgive, we fail ourself, which we often do anyway.

What is it one fails, in the refusal of forgivness? The internizilation of bitterness and grief which often accompanies those who maintain ill feelings towards those who have wronged them?

Yes, and on the flipside of the same emotions, the denial of love/compassion that should be exended to all people.

I'm just not sure they should, words are often empty and of cold comfort. It is the easiest of tasks to take the life of someone, and then turn around and say you're sorry, even to feel sincere remorse and guilt for ones actions, but this is hardly restitution, nor will it have undone the transgression. There is a current of thought, that it is the duty of an individual to forgive trangressions (and the transgressor) the second they have passed, and from many religious perspectives this makes sense as forgivness is one of the cornerstones for such religions.

I just do not believe that this is the case for all people, and all circumstances. Repenting is not always enough, nor is the act of forgiving always a balm for the soul. Some people simply do not merit the courtesy.

The point of forgiveness is not about the other person earning it, or his paying the price for his transgressions, or saying or feeling he is sorry for whatever he did. The crucifixion, whether it happened or not, tells the story of forgiveness: It's about being able to be nailed to a tree, in excruciating pain, by people who are far from sorry they are doing it to you, and saying "Forgive them, they don't understand." True forgiveness is not a hollow "I forgive you" on your part, nor is it a hollow "I'm sorry" on someone else's part; it's about a genuine movement from the heart of the offended to the offender, to say "I see and understand your humanness/imperfection, I release what you've done to me and bless you." There is nobody unworthy of forgiveness, because there is nobody 100% perfect who is immune from doing wrong.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:The point of forgiveness is not about the other person earning it, or his paying the price for his transgressions, or saying or feeling he is sorry for whatever he did. The crucifixion, whether it happened or not, tells the story of forgiveness: It's about being able to be nailed to a tree, in excruciating pain, by people who are far from sorry they are doing it to you, and saying "Forgive them, they don't understand." True forgiveness is not a hollow "I forgive you" on your part, nor is it a hollow "I'm sorry" on someone else's part; it's about a genuine movement from the heart of the offended to the offender, to say "I see and understand your humanness/imperfection, I release what you've done to me and bless you." There is nobody unworthy of forgiveness, because there is nobody 100% perfect who is immune from doing wrong.

I disagree, but you do get what I am saying about certain religions and the necessity of forgivness from their theological perspectives. From a Christian (or anyone else who puts value into the Christ mythos) forgivness is a core tennant, and as such the idea of everyone deserves forgivness because no one is perfect, is the same as saying everyone is sinful because no one is perfect. Universalist proclimations have never sat well with me, and this is yet another example. Frankly I do not believe that a mother forgiving the murderer of her child is really something which the mother should do, nor that she is any less for not doing so. Forgivness is essentially saying I absolve you of your transgression, and in so doing I absolve myself of something else (i.e. nobody's perfect), but there are varying degrees of wrong doing and not all are worthy of having absolution.

Not to say that people are unable (or should not be able) to attone for their tranrgressions, I'm all for reperations and restitution, people can make up for their past mistakes; but I do not believe it is the duty of the wronged to asage the guilt of the wrongdoer, nor that forgivness means that justice has been done.

I guess this is a theological difference in which we'll have to disagree based on our understandings of the Universe and the goingson therein. I'm of the school that says forgiveness is a requirement to salvation or enlightmentment, and while it's not usually easy nor fun, the mother who doesn't forgive her child's killer carries that as a stumbling block to her grave, and even her next life if you've a belief in reincarnation. Forgiveness never has to be given to the knowledge of the killer (to ease his guilt), nor can or will forgiveness on the behalf of the wronged make up for, or undo, the evil of the wrongdoer. But it must be done if the violated wishes to move higher on the spiritual enlightment scale. If your faith doesn't have salvation or enlightmentment, the concept of that will often be lost.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:I guess this is a theological difference in which we'll have to disagree based on our understandings of the Universe and the goingson therein. I'm of the school that says forgiveness is a requirement to salvation or enlightmentment, and while it's not usually easy nor fun, the mother who doesn't forgive her child's killer carries that as a stumbling block to her grave, and even her next life if you've a belief in reincarnation. Forgiveness never has to be given to the knowledge of the killer (to ease his guilt), nor can or will forgiveness on the behalf of the wronged make up for, or undo, the evil of the wrongdoer. But it must be done if the violated wishes to move higher on the spiritual enlightment scale. If your faith doesn't have salvation or enlightmentment, the concept of that will often be lost.

I just disagree with the notion of enlightenment (and frankly I haven't anything to be saved from) meaning that people can not be upset about things which have happened to them, nor that they should be the ones to provide absolution. Being a member of a temporal religion (and of a similar philosophical bent), detatchment from the world (one of the goals of attaining an enlightened state, from my understanding) is a concept which is rather antithical to the perspective I have. This is one of the reasons most of the Eastern religious/ philosophical schools never really appealed to me, not that most of the Western ones did either.

The idea that someone needs to forgive (absolve of guilt or wrong doing) (albeit, this isn't as problematic once justice is served, i.e. if someone has repaid theur debt, it is not ethical to continue to punish them) automatically, and without consideration or reserve just seems to be rather hollow and considerably unjust.

I don't think that forgiveness is necessary. I think that getting past the anger and hurt another has caused you is your duty to yourself because it poisons the life that you have. As the saying goes living well is the best revenge. You can't know if you are right about any afterlife you may believe in or enlightenment, anything like that, but you can see with your own eyes how clasping anger and hate towards others hurts you in this life. You don't have to forgive them - however you define it - but you have to let those emotions go and learn to relish your life again, IMO.

gillyflower wrote:I don't think that forgiveness is necessary. I think that getting past the anger and hurt another has caused you is your duty to yourself because it poisons the life that you have. As the saying goes living well is the best revenge. You can't know if you are right about any afterlife you may believe in or enlightenment, anything like that, but you can see with your own eyes how clasping anger and hate towards others hurts you in this life. You don't have to forgive them - however you define it - but you have to let those emotions go and learn to relish your life again, IMO.

Certainly, people can be consumed by grief and rage, and many may want revenge for the wrong done to them, but this is different than seeking justice for the wrong done. One can take those emotions and turn them to a benefical outpouring, or find other methods of releasing them, but I do not think that the best method for doing so is by excusing those who are responsible for your pain in the first place, and this is what forgiving is.

Seeking justice does not mean that one allows ones grief to consume them, only that those responsible are held to account for their actions. One can (and has every right) to place responsibility on those who are responsible, but should not burden themselves with the blame either.

Right on Gorm!

There is a difference between 'accepting and moving on' and 'forgiveness'.

Forgiveness is bandied about like some wacky status symbol these days...,
"Forgiveness makes you a better person." "Forgiveness makes you more enlightened."

Sorry, not buying into it. Forgiveness for it's own sake makes you a bloody doormat.
Personal responsibility is a core ethic in my belief system and I hold everyone else to the same standard.
Wrong me or mine, make yourself my enemy and you will be treated as such.

I need not allow rage or thoughts of revenge to consume me.
I can accept that you are a waste of skin and move on with my life.
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

That's my 2-cents worth, anyway.

Dromahair wrote:Right on Gorm!

There is a difference between 'accepting and moving on' and 'forgiveness'.

Forgiveness is bandied about like some wacky status symbol these days...,
"Forgiveness makes you a better person." "Forgiveness makes you more enlightened."

Sorry, not buying into it. Forgiveness for it's own sake makes you a bloody doormat.
Personal responsibility is a core ethic in my belief system and I hold everyone else to the same standard.
Wrong me or mine, make yourself my enemy and you will be treated as such.

I need not allow rage or thoughts of revenge to consume me.
I can accept that you are a waste of skin and move on with my life.
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

That's my 2-cents worth, anyway.

There's a surprise, the CR's agree with each other

And I agree with you both.

gillyflower wrote:I don't think that forgiveness is necessary. I think that getting past the anger and hurt another has caused you is your duty to yourself because it poisons the life that you have. As the saying goes living well is the best revenge. You can't know if you are right about any afterlife you may believe in or enlightenment, anything like that, but you can see with your own eyes how clasping anger and hate towards others hurts you in this life. You don't have to forgive them - however you define it - but you have to let those emotions go and learn to relish your life again, IMO.

This covers my feelings best. You don't "have" to forgive to be happy and have a good life. You MUST let go of the anger, and I think once you let go of the anger the pain takes care of itself.

There are 2 people in my past that I have not forgiven for the things they have done. But I don't dwell on it. I'm not angry at them any longer. I actually got vindication and got to see the looks on their faces when it all came together. The day I saw their shock and confusion was the day I started to heal. I'll never forgive them. But I have moved forward to a wonderful life.
Is it wrong on some level to enjoy their confusion and shock? Probably, but I was able to stop being angry at them. I stopped hating them and started pitying them. Forgive them? No way in HELL! Move past it? Yep.

Dromahair wrote:
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

This deserves a resounding "HEAR! HEAR!" sez me.

Guess maybe I had too many years of being exhorted to forgive people who I knew from unpleasant experience would only repeat whatever they'd done to me. In such cases, forgiving them because "They just don't understand what they do" is frequently so much organic mulch. They oftentimes damn well DO understand that what they're doing is making someone else miserable and delight in causing that misery.

Letting go of one's anger at them when it's behavior you're powerless to change...that's one thing, beneficial and useful to oneself.

However, forgiving because "They know not what they do" arises, IMO, out of what at bottom is a holier than thou attitude. Note the degree of superiority implied in the statement, "They don't understand what they're doing"?

DotNotInOz wrote:

Dromahair wrote:
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

This deserves a resounding "HEAR! HEAR!" sez me.

Guess maybe I had too many years of being exhorted to forgive people who I knew from unpleasant experience would only repeat whatever they'd done to me. In such cases, forgiving them because "They just don't understand what they do" is frequently so much organic mulch. They oftentimes damn well DO understand that what they're doing is making someone else miserable and delight in causing that misery.

Letting go of one's anger at them when it's behavior you're powerless to change...that's one thing, beneficial and useful to oneself.

However, forgiving because "They know not what they do" arises, IMO, out of what at bottom is a holier than thou attitude. Note the degree of superiority implied in the statement, "They don't understand what they're doing"?

well, in my belief system a holier than thou attitude was justified in that instance-they didn't understand that they were killing the human manifestation of God

DotNotInOz wrote:

Dromahair wrote:
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

This deserves a resounding "HEAR! HEAR!" sez me.

Guess maybe I had too many years of being exhorted to forgive people who I knew from unpleasant experience would only repeat whatever they'd done to me. In such cases, forgiving them because "They just don't understand what they do" is frequently so much organic mulch. They oftentimes damn well DO understand that what they're doing is making someone else miserable and delight in causing that misery.

Letting go of one's anger at them when it's behavior you're powerless to change...that's one thing, beneficial and useful to oneself.

However, forgiving because "They know not what they do" arises, IMO, out of what at bottom is a holier than thou attitude. Note the degree of superiority implied in the statement, "They don't understand what they're doing"?

In my belief, we may consciously 'know what we're doing' when we're doing something wrong - like intentionally hurting someone - but we don't 'know what we're doing' when it boils down to the truth that we are all One with each other and when we hurt someone "else" we're, in fact, hurting ourselves.

This is how I see forgiveness:

Biblically speaking;

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

And:

"The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience,tolerance, humility, forgiveness." -Dalai Lama

"Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace". - Buddha


“To understand everything is to forgive everything”. -Buddha

When we undertand, we have to forgive. If we haven't forgiven, we haven't yet understood.

I think it is possible that we are using the word forgive differently here.

I have heard people say that to forgive is to forget. There are some things that should never be forgotten.


Am I angry anymore?
Of course not.

But do I forget?
Never.

Do I trust anymore?
Why should I?

Do I give that person the kind of control that actively telling the person I forgive them would give?
That would encourage more trespasses.

Remember, this doesn't mean that I never forgive. It just means that I am unlikely to forgive, if someone doesn't acknowledge that there was a problem, and at least take steps to make it right.

And as I act, I ask others to act as well. I have never asked someone for forgiveness if I haven't taken the above steps myself.

Davelaw wrote:

DotNotInOz wrote:

Dromahair wrote:
Forgiveness is reserved for those truly deserving. It is the gift that you give to those who have truly redeemed themselves in your eyes, who have made great effort to address past wrongs. It is a rare and precious thing, not to be handed out like candy to everyone who slights you. If you're just doing it so that you can feel better about yourself you're doing it for selfish reasons - your intent is false and unworthy.

This deserves a resounding "HEAR! HEAR!" sez me.

Guess maybe I had too many years of being exhorted to forgive people who I knew from unpleasant experience would only repeat whatever they'd done to me. In such cases, forgiving them because "They just don't understand what they do" is frequently so much organic mulch. They oftentimes damn well DO understand that what they're doing is making someone else miserable and delight in causing that misery.

Letting go of one's anger at them when it's behavior you're powerless to change...that's one thing, beneficial and useful to oneself.

However, forgiving because "They know not what they do" arises, IMO, out of what at bottom is a holier than thou attitude. Note the degree of superiority implied in the statement, "They don't understand what they're doing"?

well, in my belief system a holier than thou attitude was justified in that instance-they didn't understand that they were killing the human manifestation of God

It is very condescending, isn't it? I think that is Jesus at his most patronizing.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:This is how I see forgiveness:

Biblically speaking;

But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times." "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt. The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go. "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded. "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.' "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened. "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed. "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.

"Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."

And:

"The whole purpose of religion is to facilitate love and compassion, patience,tolerance, humility, forgiveness." -Dalai Lama

"Those who are free of resentful thoughts surely find peace". - Buddha


“To understand everything is to forgive everything”. -Buddha

When we undertand, we have to forgive. If we haven't forgiven, we haven't yet understood.

You see, that is one of the problems I have with Christianity. You get the old stick and carrot approach. It isn't be good to other people because it benefits yourself and is what an ethical and honorable person does in this life. It is be good to other people and you'll get a nice reward in the next life or else you'll get the stick in the next life.

As a parent, that approach didn't really work. I didn't want my children to "be good" to others because I would give them a cupcake the next day. I wanted them to be good to others, not harbor anger towards others, because it made their lives better and the lives of the other people, too.