"The Divine Self" means just what?

(((((TED))))

sacrificialgoddess wrote:(((((TED))))

*hugs SG* Thanks for the phone call... I appreciated it, sorry I got so busy at work.

Work is very important. And so is having a job!

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

maya3 wrote:Yes I do, you are encouraged to experience God yourself and not just read the scriptures or hear about it from a guru .

But obviously no one can prove their experiences, they could be hallucinations.

Maya

Sorry I've not been participating much on this board or the site in general, I've had some real-life drama and haven't had a very good week. Poking my nose back in for a second though.

Maya -- that's what I like about my religion and others like it... the first-hand experience (or UPG) is what's required, not a pope or priest or preacher or guru or mediator.

No, that wasn't quite what I was asking but now that I've slept on it, I think there are people who have contact with what they believe are spiritual beings and join a religion and then there are people like you and TED who join a religion that makes sense to them, or that they can believe, and hope for spiritual contact using the mind altering techniques preferred by that religion, if any are encouraged. I was really asking why you wanted the contact but both of you, I expect, have heard about the experiences of others and would like to experience it yourself. Am I right?

Well, I can only speak for me... going through the traumas of fundamentalist Christianity I went through the (typical I suppose) teenage maltheist Fuck-you-God rants, though like Alex I held on to the deep-down that there was something better, a force for good or of divine love. I had experienced love in small bits and pieces (yea, even in the church) and so that was familiar to me, as well as meditation, hence I joined a religion that focused on the power of meditation and divine love. So no, I didn't have a god come down and point out that I should join thus-and-thus religion, but I did have signs along the way that guided me there as well as my past experiences and what I wanted. I would not say that I joined my religion and then 'hoped for spiritual contact', I joined my religion because it offered and promoted the kind of spiritual contact I was familar with, believed in and enjoyed. The kind of spiritual contact promoted in the churches I grew up in - shouting and praying out loud, speaking in tongues, hearing from Jesus, never happened to me and made me feel uncomfortable. So I joined a group that believed what I already did. My only phoenominal UPGs consist of contact with the Divine Mind, an experience of utter peace and love and joy that is my association with the Divine. I'm not naive enough to not realize the meditation experience may simply be neurons firing from chemical imput created from relaxing and commanding they do so. Regardless, for me the ends - the physical, mental and emotional benefits - justify the means.

We need a thread about how and why we ended up in the religion we did. Like you, I discovered a religion that I already believed. I had had spiritual contact before I joined up but unlike your religion offering spiritual contact that you were familiar with and enjoyed, I chose a religious group where spiritual contact of all kinds were and are accepted. I had had many years of oh goodness, people like one man on Bnet who checked their spiritual experience against other people's or a book before they accepted it. If it didn't fall in line with the accepted norm of the religion, then it certainly wasn't contact with the god(s) of that religion. Which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.

I accept that my senses may be playing me false too. I don't crave a UPG with a god enough to mess with my senses too much though.

I have been very blessed with my UPGs. I have always been fully awake and conscience not on any substances legal or otherwise.

With only the exception of journey work (Astral travel) which I am either in deep meditation or asleep.

Much of who and what I have seen I have been awake for, and although I could be completely delusional and insane, I do not believe I was. I have had information verified as accurate later.

I am very blessed and fortunate.

I believe those who have had UPG's do, genuinely meet whom they believe they are meeting or experiencing.

The experiences are intended to be private, which is IMO why no one else has them at the same time. Each one is special and sacred.

I hope none of that sounded arrogant, if it did I do ask everyone's forgiveness, I did not mean too. I am sorry

gillyflower wrote:
We need a thread about how and why we ended up in the religion we did.

That's a great idea, Gilly! So start the thread!!!

The Divine Self?

I think that I will take the original question in a different direction. I am Asatru, but I think Hellenic reconstructionists would see it pretty much the same as I will phrase it. When one of our faiths speak of the god-self, we make reference to the twin forces that work through us, the god self, and the jottun or titan nature. Human beings are heirs to the primal forces, the forces of creation and destruction, eternal ice and shattering fire. The blind, uncaring, thoughtless power that accepts no limits, that is incapable of limitation or remorse is in all of us. Neither good, nor evil, this titanic or jottun nature is inside us, it is the drive that pushes us forward, and yet unchecked, will destroy us all.

We are also heirs to the divine, the gods of spirit and life infuse us with the ability to care, to love, to dream, to build, to look outside ourselves, and beyond our own mortality. We have the capacity for art, science, humour, healing, for comunity building, the quest for justice rather than power, for balance rather than dominance. We have within us the ability to be more than naked desire and ability to satisfy them. This is our god-self. Mortal, we are born knowing our death, and yet with the divine essense to dare to dream, build, and hope beyond it.

To be human is to be an animal, and yet more. To be human is to be shaped of the bones of the first Jottun, and yet inspired by the breath of the gods themselves. We are flesh, we are spirit, we are mind. We are a thing undreamed of upon the earth before now; with the lives of mayflies, the urges of jottuns, and the heart of a god. We are human. That is more than enough, yes?

Good morning DotNotInOz! May I ask (if you remember) what was the reading, that started the discussions, that prompted you to ask the questions?

Hmmm...no, I don't happen to, Willow, but I'll see if I can find out.

I wouldn't mind reading the original myself.

gillyflower wrote:

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:

maya3 wrote:Yes I do, you are encouraged to experience God yourself and not just read the scriptures or hear about it from a guru .

But obviously no one can prove their experiences, they could be hallucinations.

Maya

Sorry I've not been participating much on this board or the site in general, I've had some real-life drama and haven't had a very good week. Poking my nose back in for a second though.

Maya -- that's what I like about my religion and others like it... the first-hand experience (or UPG) is what's required, not a pope or priest or preacher or guru or mediator.

No, that wasn't quite what I was asking but now that I've slept on it, I think there are people who have contact with what they believe are spiritual beings and join a religion and then there are people like you and TED who join a religion that makes sense to them, or that they can believe, and hope for spiritual contact using the mind altering techniques preferred by that religion, if any are encouraged. I was really asking why you wanted the contact but both of you, I expect, have heard about the experiences of others and would like to experience it yourself. Am I right?

Well, I can only speak for me... going through the traumas of fundamentalist Christianity I went through the (typical I suppose) teenage maltheist Fuck-you-God rants, though like Alex I held on to the deep-down that there was something better, a force for good or of divine love. I had experienced love in small bits and pieces (yea, even in the church) and so that was familiar to me, as well as meditation, hence I joined a religion that focused on the power of meditation and divine love. So no, I didn't have a god come down and point out that I should join thus-and-thus religion, but I did have signs along the way that guided me there as well as my past experiences and what I wanted. I would not say that I joined my religion and then 'hoped for spiritual contact', I joined my religion because it offered and promoted the kind of spiritual contact I was familar with, believed in and enjoyed. The kind of spiritual contact promoted in the churches I grew up in - shouting and praying out loud, speaking in tongues, hearing from Jesus, never happened to me and made me feel uncomfortable. So I joined a group that believed what I already did. My only phoenominal UPGs consist of contact with the Divine Mind, an experience of utter peace and love and joy that is my association with the Divine. I'm not naive enough to not realize the meditation experience may simply be neurons firing from chemical imput created from relaxing and commanding they do so. Regardless, for me the ends - the physical, mental and emotional benefits - justify the means.

We need a thread about how and why we ended up in the religion we did. Like you, I discovered a religion that I already believed. I had had spiritual contact before I joined up but unlike your religion offering spiritual contact that you were familiar with and enjoyed, I chose a religious group where spiritual contact of all kinds were and are accepted. I had had many years of oh goodness, people like one man on Bnet who checked their spiritual experience against other people's or a book before they accepted it. If it didn't fall in line with the accepted norm of the religion, then it certainly wasn't contact with the god(s) of that religion. Which to me doesn't make a lot of sense.

I accept that my senses may be playing me false too. I don't crave a UPG with a god enough to mess with my senses too much though.

Hey Gilly,

Great idea on the thread... I saw it htere, may have to wander over when done here. I think that perhaps too often you pair us New Thoughters up with Christian Scientists - I never said we didn't accept spiritual contact of all kinds. The reason spiritual contact via meditation is so important for us is because that's how the movement started - Myrtle Fillmore used meditation alone to cure her fatal diagnosis of TB, and the Brooks sisters had enlightenment through meditation that cured Nona's esophagus disease, and their poverty problems, and Malinda Cramer had enlightenment through meditation that cured her of being what she considered an 'invalid', and gave her strength and health. Charles Fillmore used affirmations in meditation to strengthen his withered leg, after which he disposed of his cane. From that they branched out to teach others and the focus was, naturally, enlightenment via meditation, which worked for countless others down the line. New Thought has had a love-hate relationship with New Age, our child... we were doing all sorts of channelled and automatic writings, various types of spiritual healing, energy work, etc., and then in the 80s, Unity Church decided we had gotten too far away from our roots and had all channelled writing - which was a LOT - removed from our church library. This naturally upset a lot of people, as I think that's when A Course in Miracles was getting so big (and is currently still so big in our church). This was something they realized later was a mistake (ah, politics) and put them back in. As far as I'm aware, that was the only time in recent history the church at large stepped up to proclaim a right-vs-wrong method of spiritual experience.... from thereon, it's been pretty much up to the individual parishoners and ministers and church leadership how they wish to handle and govern their own spirituality. Which is why, like UU, our churches can be so different from one to the next!

I didn't put it clearly enough, TED. I didn't assume that your church had a narrow interpretation of what is okay in the spiritual contact department, I just repeated back what I thought you said about choosing it because it offered a form of contact (meditation) that you felt comfortable. with.

It was meant as a compare and contrast, from me, who went from a religion where spiritual contact made a great many people uncomfortable, unless it matched up with the bible and even so it wasn't universally approved, to a religion (or at least a tradition) where your UPG was your UPG. If you experienced spirits talking to plants, walking in a forrest, cooking, buck naked in a circle, if you thought Isis was communing with you on Tuesday at a bookstore and Zeus on Wednesday, and a cat familiar joined you at the beach on Friday, it was all good! If you used Tarot cards, runes, scrying, visualizations, spell casting, believed that your dead grandma gave you guidance, and your house was haunted, and candle magic works for healing, it was just fine, just as long as you realized that it was your UPG and not meant for anyone else.

I just meant that I was looking for a religion where people are into experimentation and aren't rigid about much of anything spiritual, although there a exceptions of course.

Oh okay, I gotcha Gilly. It's nice when people don't tell you what you believe and don't believe, and it's not nice when people tell you what you do and don't believe. Nothing irks me more. (Thinking back to past experiences)

It doesn't really matter to me what other people do or don't believe or call themselves. It does not affect my relationship with my gods at all either one way or another. I don't like them trying to fit my religion and deities into their religion's world view - usually in a subservient role. That is something that really irks me.

What pushes my buttons, regarding what I said, is when I get told "You know better." 'You know better than to believe that garbage' makes mah blood boil.

Define UPG for me please.

The Divine Self is not a term I use, but the Christ within might be in the same neighborhood of meaning. As TED has said we reflect different aspects of New Thought thinking, and there is plenty of it.

One great teacher we love Cady says 'the Christ in me is not the same as the Christ in you.' So right off the bat we know we aren't going to all have the same experiences of divinity. Many of us say we are the hands and feet of God.....and to me that sums up being divine. But it is never any one thing.........however if the Christ within you is manifesting it will look like love, compassion, and all that good stuff. If the less than divine part is out there it will look and feel like ego, which is always worried about it's status.

Then, separate to me, are the mystic experiences. They are a regular crazy quilt. I'm sure many people have had , spontaneous estatic moments while admiring a sunset , the stars, or some other dazzling aspect of nature, to me having a spiritual practice every day will lead one to having more of these. One of these can be a lifting out of the body in an estatic flood of physical feeling. I feel as though a current is flowing from and to me. I 'feel' it is God on the other end. Is this one of the infamous natural highs?" Of course it is. It never grows stale and I would consider this to be an ultimate knowing of the Christ within me. It wouldn't surprise me if everyone has a different experience , perhaps the feeling of oil flowing over one's head or the feeling of a silken mantle falling onto your body. In human form how do we relate except through our bodies?

In New Thought , this mental discipline, of bringing well being, love, tender regard for ourselves into ourselves is a vituosity we are always aiming for so we can express it. We are the extension of God's love here in this place in this form. We seem to be tasked with being the best human beings we can. To me that includes forgiving the shortcomings and judgements of ourselves and others. That would be acting in a 'divine' manner, perhaps manifesting a 'divine self'.

Unverifiable Personal Gnosis. Your experiences are part of what make up what you believe and why you believe it, but many of these experiences are unreproducible and people have to take it on, well, faith that you believe you have had your experiences.

I don't have to believe in your UPG, I just need to trust that your UPG is your UPG and the way you see the universe.

Example. I have met my goddess. I have had tea with her and she screamed and yelled and really let me have it, telling me to get my sh't together, if I didn't want to me offing myself within the year. She told me she loved me, and a lot more, besides. This is my UPG. I believe it really happened. I remember it happening. Does anyone else have to believe it happened? No. But they have to trust that this is what I believe, and that it is the reason I believe what I believe and why I love my goddess so much. Why I feel that she has chosen me. This is why I believe I am on the right path for me.

Clear as mud?

Thank you, it's very clear and a wonderful way to describe those moments that I'm sure we have all had.

I've had a few. The one that comes to mind was an evening when on the way to work I noticed a really lovely sunset. As I was pulling into to a space I said, "You do such wonderful work!" A voice clear as the proverbial bell said, "You mean we do wonderful work." I said I didn't understand. I heard, " Watch the small pink cloud on the lower right." Just then a flash of light lit the far corner of the little cloud, a sparkle that reflected for a moment. "You did that."

That was all but when I stopped crying it gave me a lot to think about. One thing it made me think was that our good intentions and thoughts make energy that remains even when nothing apparently happens. I often wonder now when I feel a deep peace in a particular place if it is not the result of someone thinking beautiful thoughts there before I arrived. We are not all obviously blessed with a great and obvious purpose, but I believe we can all create beauty, if only in the ambiance.

It made me think a lot of different things at different times , but that is my current favorite.

That is right in line with the way many Pagans feel about energy, you know. Some of us think it is our duty to send energy into the universe for the benefit of others. It is what we are talking about when one of us asks for energy, prayers or thoughts to be sent to a particular family or person. Energy intentionally sent with will is magic.

Yep yep! That's why we're Pagan-friendly. As my grandmother once saw in the paper, we sponsor solstice celebrations etc. at our church. "Whose idea was it at your church to allow pagans there??!" she asked. I said, we always have, we let in anybody.

Teka, I love your experiences. I'm a little envious, I may have to revamp meditation practices. I backslid and quit about a year ago.

Personally IRL I've only met one pagan and that was at work. I was impressed with her 'goddess' related bumper sticker. I haven't seen her in years but we are still in touch thru email about our common interests.

At our church we have a mixture of non christians, Sun Bear, Sai Baba, another native American belief I don't remember, but they helped us build a medicine circle in the woods at the edge of our parking lot. I was tasked with finding a stone to represent Grandmother Moon. I was honored to participate.

TED what I notice my UPGs (thank you SG for a perfect turn of phrase) have a Zen quality about them , like a koan, they almost make my brain itch. When I had this one I was trying to get my mind around the idea of 'co-creation' fostered by some metaphysical class after church in the weeks prior. I did not get the idea and had completely laid it aside about the same way I did the Immaculate Conception many years ago. You know.....".Oh well I don't understand this but it makes no differnce."

What I understand now is the power in this, as in prayer, goodwill or compassion for others. (Perfect example Gilly)

Lately it has been brought home to me that we cannot have for ourselves what we withold from others. For instance, something goes wrong with the affirmation that asks for every good thing for another , except winning the lottery, which we really just want for ourselves. LOL

It would be nice if I took this to New Thought. Thank you all for putting up with my slipping into my on cloak of many colors.

The many points made here are really good.

Everyone knows the "misery loves company expression" expression?. (I know that seems unrelated but Teka reminded me).

I find when depressed or feeling fearful, being around happy or successful people makes me feel better, safer, because I know it can happen to us all.

I wish everyone well in every degree, I know if others are doing well I can be too. I know it doesn't really sound altruistic, because it means I get something too.

But I much prefer having people happy and successful. I believe good energy spreads. Well actually I believe all energy spreads, so keeping it happy and prosperous is much healthier for us all. IMO

Thank you Teka

Yay! Part of prosperity teachings are to surround yourself with prosperous, successful people and things. Even secular prosperity teachers preach this.

Teka,

At our church we have a mixture of non christians, Sun Bear, Sai Baba,
another native American belief I don't remember, but they helped us
build a medicine circle in the woods at the edge of our parking lot. I
was tasked with finding a stone to represent Grandmother Moon. I was
honored to participate.

What a great church you belong to. I love it when churches and other places of worship integrate other belief systems.

Grandmother moon, so it's Mother Earth, Father Sun and Grandmother Moon?
That is really nice, I like that.

Maya

Ted and Maine,

I agree too. It makes a big difference to be near people who are happy and successful.
Also the more you give the more you get.

Maya

You wrote:

"What the hell is this "Divine Self"? I posed the question and said that I felt that we couldn't assume that everyone here would agree what constitutes this sort of self even if we could figure out what it means to start with."

They're probably referring to what Vedanta refers to as "the Self". That's the innermost you. The "you"
, without the conditioning and attributes. The from-the-inside view that is our experience, in its abstract, general, attributeless form.

That Self, of course, is also at the center of every conscious being, everywhere.

And, according to Vedanta, and as I suggest is so, the Self is what fundamentally is. The ultimate reality.

But don't take my word for it. Isn't it true that your existence, and your experience, together, are the one thing that you know, for sure, the existence of? So, if anything is real, if anything exists, it's that innermost you, the Subject of subjective experience, the Self. After all, any evidence that you have for anything else, is in your experience.

I don't mean to sound as if I'm proselytizing. I just want to answer your question as best I can.

By the way, is it ok if I do a little format experiment? I'd like to find out if this will highlight a quote. I'd rather try it in an experiement, rather than experiment on something that I'm actually quoting, like the passage that I quoted above.

Test quote