"The Divine Self" means just what?

An interesting reading this morning in the Unitarian Universalist church I've attended a couple of times. I should probably explain that this church has somewhat casual summer services that are led by a member of the congregation and consist of some thought-provoking readings and then the posing of three questions prior to a group discussion of the topic for that Sunday.

Today's topic was the difference between believing and knowing. While I feared that the discussion would become a self-congratulatory one about UU's being ever so much more enlightened than fundamentalist-whatevers in our not having hidebound beliefs to which we must claim to adhere, instead the discussion ranged over what it means to believe vs. to know. Is the former a preliminary to the latter? Are they related somehow or not at all? Is there at bottom any real difference?

Anyway, the reading prior to the discussion mentioned "the divine self" several times, promoting the idea that one must move from an intellectual "knowing" something is so which is primarily evidence-based to a more "divine knowing"--whatever that means. Much was said about "the Divine Self."

What the hell is this "Divine Self"? I posed the question and said that I felt that we couldn't assume that everyone here would agree what constitutes this sort of self even if we could figure out what it means to start with.

At bottom, I think, is the question: Is there a "something more" about humankind, or do we simply wish/hope that there is? Your thoughts?

The Divine Self is the entire principle in New Thought. Coming to terms with it is a series of meditation on the Divine Self, not knowing if its there or not (in faith that it is) and then finding it through seeking (seek and you shall find). The Divine Self is the God within, or the True Self.

TigersEyeDowsing wrote:The Divine Self is the God within, or the True Self.

Okay, so what is that? The "God within"? What "god"? What does "God" mean in that sense? Is this an expression of the idea that humankind has an indwelling piece of God making us all part and parcel of deity? Aren't we basically trying to give some sort of explanation for whatever it is that makes us alive rather than dead?

The "True Self"? As opposed to the "false" everyday person I believe myself to be--inveterate reader, introvert, highly introspective, social loner, married, keeping house (mostly haphazardly when I haven't a good book to read), etc.? How can something that I'm not sure I have be more true than what I know of myself on a day-to-day basis?

It seems to me another of those nebulous terms that people use on the assumption that everyone understands what is meant.

Say more if you would, please.

Sure.

I'm giving, of course, just my understanding and it may be different from everyone elses, including Teka's, though she's a part of my church.

>Is this an expression of the idea that humankind has an indwelling piece of God making us all part and parcel of deity?

That's about it for me.

>The "True Self"? As opposed to the "false" everyday person I believe myself to be--inveterate reader, introvert, highly introspective, social loner, married, keeping house (mostly haphazardly when I haven't a good book to read), etc.? How can something that I'm not sure I have be more true than what I know of myself on a day-to-day basis?

I don't think the 'falsity' lies in what we like and don't like or do and don't do, the falsity is the wrong perceptions we have about ourselves and our universe (like the Buddha's "Wrong thinking"), which comes from a dis-association from the at-one-ment with God/the Divine. In theory, all wong thinking comes from a lack of at-one-ment; for example, "I wish I had that $50 so I'm going to steal it from Sarah" is wrong thinking because we are one with Sarah as well as one with the Divine (The All That Is) which is fully capable of providing us with lots more than $50-- so we're just stealing from another extension of ourself, Sarah, to get what we already had, supply.

To quote my favorite spiritual author, Cady:


16. God is not only the creative cause of every visible form of intelligence and life at its commencement, but each moment throughout its existence He lives within every created thing as the life, the ever renewing, re-creating, upbuilding cause of it. He never is and never can be for a moment separated from His creations. Then how can even a sparrow fall to the ground without His knowledge? And "ye are of more value than many sparrows" (Mt. 10:31).

17. God is. Man exists (from ex, out of, and sistere, to stand forth). Man stands forth out of God.

18. Man is a threefold being, made up of Spirit, soul, and body. Spirit, our innermost, real being, the absolute part of us, the I of us, has never changed, though our thoughts and our circumstances may have changed hundreds of times. This part of us is a standing forth of God into visibility. It is the Father in us. At this central part of his being every person can say, "I and the Father are one" (Jn. 10:30), and speak absolute Truth.

19. Mortal mind--that which Paul calls "the mind of the flesh"--is the consciousness of error.

20. The great whole of as yet unmanifested Good, or God, from whom we are projections or offspring, in whom "we live, and move, and have our being" (Acts 17:28) continually, is to me the Father--our Father; "and all ye are brethren", because all are manifestations of one and the same Spirit. Jesus, recognizing this, said: "call no man your father, upon the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven (Mt. 23:9). As soon as we recognize our true relationship to all men, we at once slip out of our narrow, personal loves, our "me and mine," into the universal love that takes in all the world, joyfully exclaiming: "Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

24. Hitherto we have turned our heart and efforts toward the external for fulfillment of our desires and for satisfaction, and we have been grievously disappointed. The hunger of everyone for satisfaction is only the cry of the homesick child for its Father-Mother God. It is only the Spirit's desire in us to come forth into our consciousness as more and more perfection, until we shall have become fully conscious of our oneness with All-perfection. Man never has been and never can be satisfied with anything less.

Lets play some hoops! Ready?

What the hell is this "Divine Self"? I posed the question and said that I felt that we couldn't assume that everyone here would agree what constitutes this sort of self even if we could figure out what it means to start with.

I call this Divine Self, Spirit. Some could call it the "breath of life". Spirit, that gives me life here & now, in the before & the here after! This Spirit of mine is connected to "All" & to all that has ever been & will be created.


At bottom, I think, is the question: Is there a "something more" about humankind, or do we simply wish/hope that there is? Your thoughts?

I believe & have faith in that this Spirit the All has a connection to itself through everthing created. It is up to me to search out this Spirit within everything & connect to it with my very essence, (my senses, my soul, my heart, my mind, my physical self). So that I may learn to live within this connection to Spirit. I am human made of Earth, Air, Fire, & Water, all connected to my 5th Element, Spirit. I am constantly seeking "All" for I too have been created & "All" lives within. I seek & search for & sometimes find this Spirit unexpectantly, wanting & waiting not only to connect, but to teach.

At bottom, I think, is the question: Is there a "something more" about humankind, or do we simply wish/hope that there is? Your thoughts?

I have a lot of mixed feelings about your statement, Dot. For one thing, the quest for the Divine Self seems to be another one of those "you're not good enough as a human" messages we love to pass on to ourselves. As if, there has to be something more or this life has no value. I highly value this life I have as a human. If I wasn't meant to be a human why was I born one? I believe my job (if you like) is to be the best human I can be and enjoy my world as a human. I don't think that I have to be more than that.

As an aside, I was ordering books today and one of the romance titles was "More Than a Man." We had a good laugh over that. As if there are women (or men) who go around saying "I want to date more than a man." But isn't the yearning to become more than human just that?

I believe that the Divine is everything. That means that dogs and rocks are also part of the Divine and the Divine is part of us. We are therefore God. By awaking and looking in the mirror or outside the window we are looking at the Divine. Learning to connect with the other parts of the Divine, to celebrate all that make up the Divine and to connect in some manner, if possible with the spirit beings that I believe exist is all I need to do. If I need to do more than that, I'm sure my gods or the Divine will tell me.

Willowcreek70633 wrote:I call this Divine Self, Spirit. Some could call it the "breath of life". Spirit, that gives me life here & now, in the before & the here after!

Okay, that's what you believe, but what does this mean, for instance, to someone raised in an agnostic or atheist family who doesn't speak the language of some things being "spiritual" whereas others are simply natural? Even members of traditional religions are likely to say, "What ARE you talking about?" I'm not sure, but I doubt that a Buddhist would have any hint of what this might mean.

What I'm saying here is that "Spirit" is simply another word for "Divine Self," neither term being any more clearcut than the other for someone who doesn't share your perspective to at least some extent. And even for someone who does, I think you're only batting back and forth language that you've learned to use and probably smiling and nodding knowingly as you do so. (Used to speak this way myself, btw.)

This Spirit of mine is connected to "All" & to all that has ever been & will be created.

Which is another belief statement that supposes quite a lot of things to be true, among them that there is a "something" within you which is connected somehow to "all that has ever been & will be created." It concludes with the belief that all things are created.

I believe & have faith in that this Spirit the All has a connection to itself through everthing created. It is up to me to search out this Spirit within everything & connect to it with my very essence, (my senses, my soul, my heart, my mind, my physical self). So that I may learn to live within this connection to Spirit. I am human made of Earth, Air, Fire, & Water, all connected to my 5th Element, Spirit. I am constantly seeking "All" for I too have been created & "All" lives within. I seek & search for & sometimes find this Spirit unexpectantly, wanting & waiting not only to connect, but to teach.

A body of beliefs relative to a particular context. Witches, New Agers and various types of occultists are likely to have some understanding of this as familiar phrases used to express beliefs, but my point is that it doesn't really define anything.

How, for instance, do you "connect to it" in other things? How would you know when you are connected or aren't? Could you demonstrate to someone else that you are connected beyond merely saying that you believe you are at that moment?

I still don't know what "Spirit" is or how I could be assured (beyond wishing it to be so) that everything is connected.

For example, someone breaks into your house, abducts and brutally murders one of your children. Upon being brought to justice, this killer expresses not the least bit of remorse. You want to feel connected to a person who'd do THAT?

* * * * * * * * * * *

Gilly remarks in part:

For one thing, the quest for the Divine Self seems to be another one of those "you're not good enough as a human" messages we love to pass on to ourselves. As if, there has to be something more or this life has no value. I highly value this life I have as a human. If I wasn't meant to be a human why was I born one? I believe my job (if you like) is to be the best human I can be and enjoy my world as a human. I don't think that I have to be more than that.

You've hit on something significant here, I think, Gilly. The context in which "Divine Self" was used in the reading was as a "something better" aspect than merely being human. To think things through intellectually and to be able to offer reasoning or evidence that something is true was cast as inferior to "knowledge" somehow coming from this "Divine Self."

The bottom line seemed to be that we ought not think so much and should "let go" and simply "feel the Divine Self within" to "know" what is ultimately true and what is not. Hence, my saying that I have no idea what the hell this means, and I don't think anybody else does.

It seems to me likely to foster significant misunderstandings when we assume that other people understand what we mean when we talk about this "higher self" or "divine self."

I think that experiencing a higher state of consciousness is a lot like an orgasm, in that people who have had orgasms know what it's like, and can all nod their heads in agreement, but it's really impossible to pen down or describe to someone who hasn't. *shrug*

Another example of being on the outside is that I've never had a god talk to me, but some folks here have and they all seem to have this connection of knowing what that's like.

I think that there is something in the human brain that has always liked to experience a warped reality, hence the experimentation with various mind altering substances that humans have done from the time they first discovered that they could. A big part of me thinks that this "higher state of consciousness" is simply another attempt to change how we perceive reality by meditation and other physical techniques. Does it mean that the "other" reality we perceive exists? No, no more than the other reality we perceive while drunk exists. We just perceive this reality differently and think we have seen "more."

All us chilluns of the 60s are very familiar with those kinds of claims! LSD anyone?

TED, no one who claims to have a god talk to them can prove it. I certainly can't prove there are spirits or a spirit world. People lie all the time, or they believe something that wasn't really as they perceived it - so many examples of that, isn't there? A lot of people saying that they have had contact with spirits doesn't mean that the gods exist, it just means that they or let's stick with just me, believe they do and that only affects one person's reality and life - mine. LOL I'm starting to sound like an atheist's ad, aren't I?

I've had Christians say that they want to live a life so other people say "I want what they have" as if they have the Good Drugs. Well, we've all seen, I hope, that there are people in every religion and no religion who are comfortable with this world and themselves and what they believe. So what do you make of that? Isn't a Higher Self just that?

gillyflower wrote:
I've had Christians say that they want to live a life so other people say "I want what they have" as if they have the Good Drugs. Well, we've all seen, I hope, that there are people in every religion and no religion who are comfortable with this world and themselves and what they believe. So what do you make of that? Isn't a Higher Self just that?

I find it somewhat ironic that a faith which regards envy of another person (which, let's face it, there IS an element of envy here) as a sin would think in terms of being an example which would inspire someone else to "want what they have." Where's any Christian humility in that attitude? < sassy wink & grin >

As for whether or not this is a manifestation of "Higher Self," what I perceive of someone else may be far afield from how that person feels about hir own life, at ease and comfortable though s/he may seem to me to be.

One man in the discussion, and I don't think it was coincidental that he was Chinese, said near its conclusion that Western civilizations focus too much upon things we do not as yet know and probably cannot know. We would do better, he said, to put that intensity toward what we can do in this lifetime, most importantly being kinder to each other, endeavoring more to make other people's living conditions better and happier as we are able.

After all, outside of one of SG's favorite acronymns, UPG, we don't really know much of anything in terms of those things which we call spiritual.

Harsh though I may seem to have been in dissecting Willow's beliefs, I think that what people believe often is a useful construct that makes emotional sense to them even though they cannot begin to explain why it does so to anyone else. Hence, TED's comparison with orgasm is a very good one. I remember somewhat bemusedly a remark made by a paranoid schizophrenic I knew years ago whose symptoms were controlled by medication. She commented that at least when she heard voices, she wasn't ever lonely.

So, there's certainly something to be said for whatever metaphor gets a person through the dark and stormy night.

DotNotInOz Happy Monday to you! A self reflecting topic indeed! The difference or sameness of between believing & knowing about Divine Self!

Your question concerning Agnostics, Atheist, or Buddhists. I cannot answer for them. Only for me.

Are you questioning my belief in Spirit/Divine Self? My connection to Spirit/My Divine Self is within me. It is my personal connection my personal belief. Everyone’s personal connection & personal beliefs differ. Your experiences, your constitution, your genes, your heredity, are unique to you. Your way of thinking, your idea of you, & your world is all uniquely you. What ever your personal relationship with your higher self is yours & yours alone.

Connecting to Spirit for me, can be as complex as going out on my front porch sitting on the swing, watching, listening, feeling, smelling nature around me. I'm like my dog exploring the same yard day after day seeking something new. For day after day, something is new. I just have to seek it out. It can be through self-meditation & self questioning. Noticing a majestic tree with all its fall foliage, & wondering what all it has seen in its 100 yr lifetime? Knowing its much more than me. It can be as simple as greeting the Sun or the Moon upon their rising. Why do I do this? It is validating to me, that I am NOT the only thing that exists.

For example, someone breaks into your house, abducts and brutally murders one of your children. Upon being brought to justice, this killer expresses not the least bit of remorse. You want to feel connected to a person who'd do THAT?
Your example is comparing coal to an apple tree.
Yes Spirit lives within, on each ones individual terms. One will become diamonds & the other bear fruit, while mankind collects from them both to boost his ego.
Just call me throwed off!

gillyflower wrote:
I've had Christians say that they want to live a life so other people say "I want what they have" as if they have the Good Drugs. Well, we've all seen, I hope, that there are people in every religion and no religion who are comfortable with this world and themselves and what they believe. So what do you make of that? Isn't a Higher Self just that?

I just want to live a life where I can say "I want what I have." I don't care what other people have, as long as they are happy. If they are not happy, then they had better fix it, but I can't say that my beliefs would do it.

Willowcreek70633 wrote:DotNotInOz Happy Monday to you! A self reflecting topic indeed! The difference or sameness of between believing & knowing about Divine Self!

Same back atcha, Willow. And thanks for taking this discussion as I intend...to toss around some ideas.

Your question concerning Agnostics, Atheist, or Buddhists. I cannot answer for them. Only for me.

I think you misunderstood my point which was that your language wouldn't explain what "Divine Self" is to someone such as they. Tigers' example was good in this respect in that people who've had sex or an orgasm have an experience in common and thus have SOME idea of what is meant. An agnostic, atheist or Buddhist likely hasn't a clue what a "Divine Self" might be.

In any event, I still think that we can't be at all sure that what you refer to as "Divine Self" or "All That Is" would necessarily be anywhere close to what I perceive those terms to mean.

Are you questioning my belief in Spirit/Divine Self?

Only possible answer to that is "Hell yes-and-no."

My connection to Spirit/My Divine Self is within me. It is my personal connection my personal belief. Everyone’s personal connection & personal beliefs differ.

Aha! Now, here I can agree with you. What you refer to as Spirit/Divine Self indeed reflects your perception of your personal beliefs.

Your experiences, your constitution, your genes, your heredity, are unique to you. Your way of thinking, your idea of you, & your world is all uniquely you. What ever your personal relationship with your higher self is yours & yours alone.

Here is where you and I part company in terms of being able to have a meaningful discussion. I have no idea if my experiences and resulting beliefs are the least bit similar to yours. Even if you and I could agree what "Divine Self" means, your perception of it and mine are likely entirely different for the very reason you cited...we are entirely different people. I know what an orgasm is...I still don't know what a "higher" or "Divine Self" is.

With your concluding sentence, we part company once again, as I don't see any point to using terms that have no agreed-upon meaning. I still don't know what having a "higher self" means. Perhaps I'm merely dense from your standpoint.

In Hinduism the Atman is the divine self and is the individual part of Brahman (God) who is the Universal Self. The purpose of Hinduism is to join Atman with Brahman.

So really from my perspective the Divine Self is God and you are God.

Maya

Do you have an UPG to provide evidence for yourself or is that just something that is taught in your religion?

Yes I do, you are encouraged to experience God yourself and not just read the scriptures or hear about it from a guru .

But obviously no one can prove their experiences, they could be hallucinations.

Maya

So really from my perspective the Divine Self is God and you are God.

I experience myself every day so from your perspective, I experience god everyday. I don't think me being me is a hallucination, but you are right, this could all be a dream. Is that what you mean?

From your perspective then there is no difference between what I think of as reality and a Divine Self because we are all gods?

No, I think you have it right.

What I mean is that in deep meditation when I (and other people) experience union with God (I have not gotten all the way there yet). It can be an amazing feeling that feels like you have absolute proof of God. Maybe you do, but you can not know for sure that it is not a hallucination.

Maya

Ah, good, now I understand. Why isn't what you have now enough for you?

Meaning that I shouldn't care weather it's a hallucination or not?

Sure, it doesn't matter.

Maya

No, that wasn't quite what I was asking but now that I've slept on it, I think there are people who have contact with what they believe are spiritual beings and join a religion and then there are people like you and TED who join a religion that makes sense to them, or that they can believe, and hope for spiritual contact using the mind altering techniques preferred by that religion, if any are encouraged. I was really asking why you wanted the contact but both of you, I expect, have heard about the experiences of others and would like to experience it yourself. Am I right?

I was thinking about how many religions encourage it. My own religion encourages experimentation with visualizations and other techniques. Peyote and other mind altering drugs, pain, repetitious movements, chanting, trance states, fasting, it's kind of amazing to me how many religions include mind altering techniques as a way to their gods or higher knowledge. I'm having a look at religion from an atheist view point here. To someone on the outside, it must seem a little less than rational!

gillyflower wrote:I'm having a look at religion from an atheist view point here. To someone on the outside, it must seem a little less than rational!

Not merely "a little less," really quite irrational and incomprehensible.

As Maya points out, we don't actually know to what extent people's beliefs have a basis in reality. "Belief" may well be a synonym for self-delusion and hallucination.

Does it do any harm? Most English-speaking people perpetuate the tradition of Santa Claus, hardly a harmful one. But are beliefs in deities so innocuous? I'm not sure that they are, particularly for religions which prohibit questioning and condemn doubt.

Gilly,

I expect, have heard about the experiences of others and would like to experience it yourself. Am I right?

With me it was almost the opposite, I meditated a lot and had some experiences, I had some thoughts on God, the universe etc. But it wasn't until I found my Ashram that I started to realize that there were other people like me who had similar experiences and thoughts, neither did I know about all the literature and scriptures!

All I really knew about religion was Lutheran Christianity and it didn't fit at all.

Maya

It is impossible to explain the Divine Self. Even the person who has experienced It cannot do it since the Divine Self is not matter. Our languages can only really explain matter. It is impossible to explain the meaning of non-matter!

maya3 wrote:Yes I do, you are encouraged to experience God yourself and not just read the scriptures or hear about it from a guru .

But obviously no one can prove their experiences, they could be hallucinations.

Maya

Sorry I've not been participating much on this board or the site in general, I've had some real-life drama and haven't had a very good week. Poking my nose back in for a second though.

Maya -- that's what I like about my religion and others like it... the first-hand experience (or UPG) is what's required, not a pope or priest or preacher or guru or mediator.

No, that wasn't quite what I was asking but now that I've slept on it, I think there are people who have contact with what they believe are spiritual beings and join a religion and then there are people like you and TED who join a religion that makes sense to them, or that they can believe, and hope for spiritual contact using the mind altering techniques preferred by that religion, if any are encouraged. I was really asking why you wanted the contact but both of you, I expect, have heard about the experiences of others and would like to experience it yourself. Am I right?

Well, I can only speak for me... going through the traumas of fundamentalist Christianity I went through the (typical I suppose) teenage maltheist Fuck-you-God rants, though like Alex I held on to the deep-down that there was something better, a force for good or of divine love. I had experienced love in small bits and pieces (yea, even in the church) and so that was familiar to me, as well as meditation, hence I joined a religion that focused on the power of meditation and divine love. So no, I didn't have a god come down and point out that I should join thus-and-thus religion, but I did have signs along the way that guided me there as well as my past experiences and what I wanted. I would not say that I joined my religion and then 'hoped for spiritual contact', I joined my religion because it offered and promoted the kind of spiritual contact I was familar with, believed in and enjoyed. The kind of spiritual contact promoted in the churches I grew up in - shouting and praying out loud, speaking in tongues, hearing from Jesus, never happened to me and made me feel uncomfortable. So I joined a group that believed what I already did. My only phoenominal UPGs consist of contact with the Divine Mind, an experience of utter peace and love and joy that is my association with the Divine. I'm not naive enough to not realize the meditation experience may simply be neurons firing from chemical imput created from relaxing and commanding they do so. Regardless, for me the ends - the physical, mental and emotional benefits - justify the means.