Public Prayer

I went out to dinner to the local hot dog joint this evening, and while we were there, some firefighters came in. After getting their hotdogs, they bowed their heads in prayer. Now leaving aside the topic of how this might make another firefighter not of their faith feel, it made me start to think about how the various religions feel about public prayer.

So now I am asking you. How do you feel about public prayer, before meals or otherwise? Does your god(s) require it? Is it a sign of respect? Or is it hypocritical showmanship? Let me know what you think.

To me, the physical bowing of the head and folding of the hands etc. is unnecessary and therefore show-ful. If one wants to give thanks, raise energy, etc., they can do it without anyone noticing. I wave my hand over my food generally, and nobody notices.

Well, geez, SG...what's the matter with you, woman? Absolutely everybody knows that everyone in OK is a Christian, so there isn't gonna be a firefighter not of their faith unless s/he's a--horror! shock! dismay!--UNBELIEVER. And then, having to watch them pray can only be an influence for good.

When I observe such, I'm nearly always reminded of Huck Finn's reaction when the "Widder" Douglas tried to civilize him. She "grumbled over her vittles" before starting to eat, but Huck said he didn't see a thing wrong with them. < wink & grin >

I think it is often used as a bonding experience. Saying Go Steelers! before the meal would probably work as well.

As long as they're quiet, I don't care.
I know a lot of people who will bow their heads and silently pray over their food.
Nothing wrong with it. It's not "showmanship". It's how they live.
It's not my place to criticize them for it as long as they aren't making me listen to it.

I'm with Tina. I don't regard something like simply bowing one's head and silently praying as public prayer.

Now, a family I once observed in a restaurant joining hands around a table for 8 as the father intoned a prayer went public as far as I'm concerned. This guy was talking loudly enough that he could be easily heard at our table a few feet away. That's putting on a display, not merely living your faith, IMO.

I'm likely overly sensitive since I think that religious observance should be a private thing.

It really annoyed me when I was eating lunch in a pretty tearoom once near a table of six or eight women that proved to be a lunchtime committee meeting of some church ladies who not only collectively prayed audibly over their food but then each expressed something she was grateful to God for. After that, they proceeded to conduct their committee meeting.

I think if you're planning a meeting of any sort in a restaurant that it's simple courtesy to other diners to book a private room. I didn't care to hear any of their business discussion and certainly wasn't interested in their lengthy discussion of pastor's sermon last Sunday. As a result, I left sooner than I ordinarily would have.

Even though the tearoom wasn't crowded, I thought they ought to have requested a private room or at the very least asked to be seated well away from others.

Am I just "tetchy" about that, or is what they did inconsiderate and ill-mannered?

It really doesn't bother me what other people do, it's not like they have the power to force me anyway.

Personally, I don't think that there is anything that I do that a person could see as "prayer" anyway.

Although I have always been partial to Bart Simpson's version.

"Dear god, we paid for this food ourselves, so, thanks for nothing!

hee hee

DotNotInOz wrote:
It really annoyed me when I was eating lunch in a pretty tearoom once near a table of six or eight women that proved to be a lunchtime committee meeting of some church ladies who not only collectively prayed audibly over their food but then each expressed something she was grateful to God for. After that, they proceeded to conduct their committee meeting.

I think if you're planning a meeting of any sort in a restaurant that it's simple courtesy to other diners to book a private room. I didn't care to hear any of their business discussion and certainly wasn't interested in their lengthy discussion of pastor's sermon last Sunday. As a result, I left sooner than I ordinarily would have.

Even though the tearoom wasn't crowded, I thought they ought to have requested a private room or at the very least asked to be seated well away from others.

Am I just "tetchy" about that, or is what they did inconsiderate and ill-mannered?

Were they being really loud and obnoxious during this meeting? If not, then why would it matter what they were discussing? IMHO, if they were being disruptive to those around them, then they should have been moved....but if not, what's the difference between a group of 6 women chatting about the goings on at church vs. the goings on at school or home or family, or whatever?? Again, if they were being unreasonably loud, then I would have a real problem with it.....otherwise, it's none of my business what they're discussing......just my 2 cents!

Why would you be bothered by people saying they are GRATEFUL????
With all the filthy language spouted by people nowadays, I'd KILL for someone to tell me they are grateful for something.

I'd much rather hear women praying than women laughing loudly, making inappropriate comments, and cursing.

People saying good things to each other... and you're offended? That's ill mannered? Why? Because they don't "keep it in the closet"? You wouldn't bat an eye at a flaming homosexual spouting off in public. What gives you the right to be offended at women simply because they are praying?
Sex should be private too. I don't care if you like men or women, so why flame?
Come on, Dot. Christians ARE allowed out in public. You should look past them, just like you do the fat pig whose belly hangs out of his shirt while he's standing in line to buy a bunch of junk food. As long as they are not addressing you and they are not holding a "hand raisin' shoutin'" fest, you have no right to call them ill mannered.

tmarie64 wrote:Why would you be bothered by people saying they are GRATEFUL????
With all the filthy language spouted by people nowadays, I'd KILL for someone to tell me they are grateful for something.

I'd much rather hear women praying than women laughing loudly, making inappropriate comments, and cursing.

People saying good things to each other... and you're offended? That's ill mannered? Why? Because they don't "keep it in the closet"? You wouldn't bat an eye at a flaming homosexual spouting off in public. What gives you the right to be offended at women simply because they are praying?
Sex should be private too. I don't care if you like men or women, so why flame?
Come on, Dot. Christians ARE allowed out in public. You should look past them, just like you do the fat pig whose belly hangs out of his shirt while he's standing in line to buy a bunch of junk food. As long as they are not addressing you and they are not holding a "hand raisin' shoutin'" fest, you have no right to call them ill mannered.

Either can be offensive if it is disruptive.

I have mixed feelings on it. I think I think like dot because, to me, spirituality is a more private thing and one really doesn't need to spout off about it in a restaurant. (Same goes for the flamin' homo, give him some STFU tea). I dunno, maybe I can overreact. I can say though, that you wouldn't see a Wiccan coven convening in a restaurant, lighting candles, using a broom and casting a circle, then invoking the God and Goddess to bless them and their food. Everyone would be staring because (what freaks!) it would be a spectacle. Even if they got no one else involved, it would not be welcome in a place like here in the South. But it's very akin to creating a circle of hand-holding and prayer/invokation by the church group.

I dunno, I may feel awkward when I see someone bow their head and pray over their food, but it's not "a mess"... I kind of see the church group as "a mess".

Wait just a minute here, that's unfair, Tina.

I'm hardly bothered by expressions of gratitude from Christians or anyone else. I was simply attempting to describe what they did.

The point of the thread is whether or not we're bothered by public prayer.

My point is that their committee business meeting was no one else's business. and they seemed to me to be proceeding as if they were in a room of their church rather than in a restaurant. The tearoom had four different rooms, a couple of which could be reserved for such gatherings.

So, okay, I admit to being overly sensitive about having been subjected to a conversation about their mission efforts that I really didn't care to hear since I'm strongly opposed to people trying to change other people's religion.

I still think their business meeting ought to have been done elsewhere and that no one needs to pray so obviously in a restaurant unless they're the only ones in the place.

One way to look at it is, if they are talking loudly about something that they would be offended at me if I pulled up a chair and disagreed with them, they are probably doing it in the wrong place.

That's a good point, All. I'm not going to disagree about being thankful that daugher's illness is doing better but I'm going to disagree about mission trips.

LOL, all.

You expressed exactly what I found objectionable about their gathering. They were speaking and behaving as if they were the only people present.

I felt like an intruder in a private meeting. That's what bothered me most. They were seated after I'd been served and seemed not to notice that anyone else was in the room.

Granted, it wasn't clearly obnoxious behavior. I simply felt them to be inconsiderate of the fact that what they were saying wasn't any of my business, but I had no choice but to overhear since my chair was barely 3 feet from that of the woman nearest to me.

I'm quite sure they'd not have cared to hear my opinion of their church's missionary work. Maybe I ought to have disagreed with them on that. :::: giggling ::::

You should have asked if you got a vote.

DotNotInOz wrote:

I felt like an intruder in a private meeting. That's what bothered me most. They were seated after I'd been served and seemed not to notice that anyone else was in the room.

This is the primary problem that could arise.

But, Dot... Would you have been as offended if they'd been talking about their periods, joking, their kids...ANY thing other than religion?

Anyone who is loud and disruptive is offensive to me.

I've never agreed with mission trips. But, you are unfair in expecting EVERYTHING religious to be kept under wraps.

They have as much right to discuss their committee business in public as any other small group. How is what they were doing any more offensive than a bunch of businessmen talking about their business?

I find it offensive that because they happened to say a prayer that anyone thinks they should hide it like it's something to be ashamed of. It's not.

Do you not get my point, Tina, or do you simply prefer to disregard it in favor of what you want to think I found objectionable?

These women were not simply discussing church matters as businesspeople might talk about their business during lunch.

ANY business meeting, church or secular, discussing the group's private concerns would have been objectionable to me since I had no choice but to overhear it. I was there to relax and enjoy lunch in a pleasant atmosphere, not to have to overhear plans for forthcoming church events, their concerns about how to get more contributions to fund mission efforts, etc. They even had one woman taking notes, probably to type up minutes of the meeting.

A group of women discussing ordinary life concerns or talking about their religious beliefs would have been something I could ignore as their right to converse as they pleased. These women conducted a church group meeting in a tearoom as if they were in a room at their church. That is what I objected to, their lack of consideration for the fact that they were not in private but behaved as if they were.

The point which I intended to add but didn't get in under the edit cutoff was that I took their behavior, perhaps unfairly, to be akin to that of Christians who assume that everyone around them will benefit from hearing what they have to say, particularly those who don't have the good sense to be Christians of their denomination.

So, yes, it was monumentally more annoying to me than a garden club committee meeting would have been, for instance.

Frankly for me it isn't a religious issue. It is an issue of courtesy. If a group comes in, sits down and had a disucssion that is loud or disruptive of the other diners then that is flatly rude. I don't care whether the group is discussing their company's balance sheet or they are a church group I think disrupting other people at a meal is discourteous.

Problem. Is it? If the group-religious, secular or non-religious- is at a crowded restaurant at lunch time then voices are going to be raised to be heard. Doesn't really matter if the group is trying to be quiet the ambiance is going to dictate that in order to be heard voices in a crowded place are going to be raised.

A bit of a two edged sword here, eh?

Yes, a group can set aside a room for a meeting. That would, IME, be the best solution. I see no harm in any group of people- a chruch group, a local firefighters group, a group of firefighters sitting down at the local diner for a couple of burgers and a hot dog or my great Aunt Sally sue and her canasta club going as a group to a restaurant and discussing what ever topic. It's what people do. In an open area where there is going to be noise then I think if one wants privacy for the conversation then one needs to choose the venue so that the restaurant or eating place is more in tune with what the diners want.

My two cents.

Well, anyway, my dismay at this group was, as you say itty, an issue of consideration rather than public prayer overall.

Getting back to the thread topic, I think Jesus had a great idea in suggesting that prayer ought to be something you go into your closet to do. Otherwise, it's too easy for it to become something it's not supposed to be, "See how holy I/we are?" being one of the more unpleasant of those things.

Ah, we do agree here.

I don't that sort of public breast beating serves any purpose other than drawing attention. I don't have an issue with a group that bows their head in a prayer. I do wonder at myself at times. This would have put me over the moon not so long ago. Odd how we change isn't it?

I have mixed feelings about it.
I think people should have the right to say and do whatever they like as long as they are not disruptive to other people. I think that blessing the food or thanking god for it before you eat is a sweet tradition. But when I've seen it in restaurants it has felt out of place. I don't know why really, perhaps it's seemed a little showy.

I often feel that it is more showy than genuine.
A couple of weeks ago, my sister in laws sister who is an orthodox jew was sitting in my sister in laws crowded kitchen praying from her prayer book after she ate.
I felt that she could have gone to her room to pray. It felt as if she was showing off a little bit, but more so that she closed herself off to everyone else and made us feel unsure of what to do.

I would never sit in a crowded kitchen and start chanting in Sanskrit, even if that's what I do at home (i don't at meals). I would have chosen to sit quietly for a second and do it in my head very briefly.

Maya