Living Out Your Philosophy/material stuff

Thank you MC; this thread is inspired by a thread of yours

A wise teacher once said that philosophy without action is worthless. I remember those words cutting me as, to be honest, I struggle to live out the faith I claim to subscribe to on a daily basis.

One struggle that really hits home is my relationship with material possessions. I think many paths deal with this dance; in Yoga, I claim to follow the 8 limbs which include the Yamas and Niyamas (ethics).... these ethics include things like asteya (non stealing/coveting/entering into debt) and aparigraha (limiting possessions to necessary things; 'non-hoarding')

so re: finding balance, here are some questions:

How much is enough?
What do we base that on?
How does your religion/philosophy suggest you dance between the natural and the man-made?

I put a story on my facebook about a guy who gave up money; it's an inspiration to me. While I can't toss everything to the wind and go live in a cave -- with three kids, that would be considered 'neglect' -- I believe it's possible and wise to learn to live with less than we pretend to need and actually gain more in the end; more health, more joy & more freedom.

And, perhaps, put more of the philosophy I claim to subscribe to into action.

Here's part of the Interview (link) that struck me as interesting; maybe you might find it interesting too:

HE WASN'T ALWAYS THIS WAY. SUELO graduated from the University of Colorado with a degree in anthropology, he thought about becoming a doctor, he held jobs, he had cash and a bank account. In 1987, after several years as an assistant lab technician in Colorado hospitals, he joined the Peace Corps and was posted to an Ecuadoran village high in the Andes. He was charged with monitoring the health of tribespeople in the area, teaching first aid and nutrition, and handing out medicine where needed; his proudest achievement was delivering three babies. The tribe had been getting richer for a decade, and during the two years he was there he watched as the villagers began to adopt the economics of modernity. They sold the food from their fields—quinoa, potatoes, corn, lentils—for cash, which they used to purchase things they didn't need, as Suelo describes it. They bought soda and white flour and refined sugar and noodles and big bags of MSG to flavor the starchy meals. They bought TVs. The more they spent, says Suelo, the more their health declined. He could measure the deterioration on his charts. "It looked," he says, "like money was impoverishing them."


If anyone is interested in his blog .... here it is:


http://zerocurrency.blogspot.com/

thoughts?

Yes, a lot of what he is saying is the Noble Savage thought, ie. he doesn't want them to have what everyone else on the planet wants, because he doesn't want them "corrupted."

Yeesh. Yes, yes, there are a lot of things about modern global life that aren't as healthy for you as starving yourself and working your body hard in the fields and and going to bed when it is dark because you don't have lights or much of anything to do. Wow is it a long list!

On the other hand, modern medicine and medicinal techniques, dentistry, television, computers, the internet, Torchwood and Nutella Crepes, you know? Becoming an astronaut because you want to do it, rather than be a hunter/gatherer. Not having a half dozen babies before you are 20 because you finally have a choice and can become a writer, like you dreamed of doing, can you believe people make money telling stories?

When cultures collide, there is a lot lost and a lot gained and so it always has been. Life can be a brutal business.

gillyflower wrote: Life can be a brutal business.

well said Gilly!

Sakhaiva wrote:
so re: finding balance, here are some questions:

How much is enough?
What do we base that on?
How does your religion/philosophy suggest you dance between the natural and the man-made?

Hitting the "send" button revealed that Gilly and I were playing GMTA. In many ways, Gilly says it better, but I'm too lazy to revise my remarks, so here's what I was going to post:

Interesting questions that remind me of how very much stuff I cleared out of our three bedroom house with basement when we moved last fall. Most of it was stuff that was quite usable but for which we had no real use. In short, lots of things that ought to have gone to Goodwill long ago but had been stored simply because we had plenty of room to do so.

I'm still sorting through boxes of things that were stashed in our basement and discovering as I do so that about 80-90% of it consists of things we now either have no use for or no room to store.

Homes with "lots of storage" are a vacuum demanding to be filled, I'm convinced.

I shudder when I walk past the open door of someone's rented garage in the apartment complex where I now live to see the tenants busily rearranging its contents. It's not a garage for parking a vehicle; it's a storage unit packed solid or nearly so with stuff.

I put a story on my facebook about a guy who gave up money; it's an inspiration to me.

Reminded me in a way of the story of the woman known as Peace Pilgrim, except I rather thought that this man was living like this in order to make a somewhat pointless statement, more of a "See here what gluttons the rest of you all are." Maybe that's just my negativity and misperception, and he's actually more noble about it than I took him to be. Peace Pilgrim, on the other hand, walked across the U.S., talking to people she encountered along the way about the importance of learning to live together in harmony as well as living off the charity of those she met. What's this guy doing with his life other than going to extremes?

I found Suelo's dismay at the tribe's using their wealth to acquire the processed food and other trappings of modern life somewhat holier than thou...the highly educated, ugly American looking down on those he'd gone to help because he "obviously" knows better. What did he expect anyway? These were apparently people who'd lived a hardscrabble existence, so I think it's understandable that they would want some luxuries and other things that they associate with a better life.

I believe it's possible and wise to learn to live with less than we pretend to need and actually gain more in the end; more health, more joy & more freedom.

While in theory I agree with this statement, in actuality, I found myself feeling rather less joyful and not as free when I hadn't the resources to travel when I felt like it, to buy a lovely porcelain bowl or figurine that I liked or a stack of books or movies if I wanted them. I suppose that indicates that I'm a hopeless materialist, but I like my creature comforts and beautiful decorative objects around me.

It wouldn't hurt me, I admit, to pare down my stuff and release through donation the things I no longer want or need. Probably, most of us could do a lot more of that than we generally do.

Yeah, and who put that story on Facebook first?

did you? LOL, I didn't notice that Ted. (I saw it on Yahoo)

Hah! Check your feed, I posted it and you posted it as well like 10 minutes later. I too caught it on yahoo! Great minds.

How much is enough?
What do we base that on?
How does your religion/philosophy suggest you dance between the natural and the man-made?

3. My religion (or at least my tradition) sees no difference between the "natural" and man-made. It is all part of the universe and deity. Nothing is held to be of more value than another part of deity.

2. We base "how much is enough" on our perceived and real needs and wants.

1. See #2. Enough is when we feel it is. That does not mean that others will have the same standards.

Some additional thoughts...

Maybe it's my independent Kansas farmer ancestry grousing here, but I find people like Suelo and to some extent Peace Pilgrim who live off the kindness of others more moochers than admirable.

But then, I come from a long line of people who believe first and foremost in providing for yourself and your family's basic needs, not depending upon others' toil to sustain you instead of doing for yourself.

Maybe I simply had enough of such aspects of my Catholic upbringing, for instance, as I got from chatting with the guy who sat next to me in my undergrad econ course. He was a Capuchin priest...an order that took a vow of poverty, typically wearing a rough-woven brown monk's robe and rope sash with sandals (although he wore a sportshirt and khakis with Dockers to class.) He admitted one day, patting his beergut, that he'd been indulging rather too much of late in the priests' beer on tap at their residence. Yeah, they had a keg available 24/7. I could have used some of that kind of poverty!

But then, as Thornton Wilder's Stage Manager remarks at one point in Our Town (paraphrasing), "The human race is marked by layers and layers of nonsense."

DotNotInOz wrote:Some additional thoughts...

Maybe it's my independent Kansas farmer ancestry grousing here, but I find people like Suelo and to some extent Peace Pilgrim who live off the kindness of others more moochers than admirable.

hmmm...... sorta harsh. But understandable.

Perhaps another pov is to see these 'moochers' as teachers. Are we so addicted to our things that we cannot bear to part with them? Not only parting with our things, but -- at times -- parting with our time and energy as well.

I struggle with sharing my time and energy as much as I struggle with sharing my stuff. There are people who come to my 'free' yoga classes whove never once come to classes where they need to pay (which is my only means of survival) This is a personal challenge for me, and it's interesting as the roles of 'moocher' and 'moochie' can be reversed; they mooching my time and energy, and me mooching their green dollars!

There's always the relationship between giving and taking. Problems arise when we take and keep.

Maybe I simply had enough of such aspects of my Catholic upbringing as chatting with the guy who sat next to me in my undergrad econ course. He was a Capuchin priest...an order that took a vow of poverty, typically wearing a rough-woven brown monk's robe and rope sash with sandals (although he wore a sportshirt and khakis with Dockers to class.) He admitted one day, patting his beergut, that he'd been indulging rather too much of late in the priests' beer on tap at their residence. Yeah, they had a keg available 24/7. I could have used some of that kind of poverty!

LOL - you and me both!

But then, as Thornton Wilder's Stage Manager remarks at one point in Our Town (paraphrasing), "The human race is marked by layers and layers of nonsense."

HA! That it is Dot, that it is....

On the timeline of Mother Earth, the realm of man will be nothing more than a blip.

TED: I'm not so good with my Facebook feed; I miss lots of stuff. I try my best

gillyflower wrote:How much is enough?
What do we base that on?
How does your religion/philosophy suggest you dance between the natural and the man-made?

3. My religion (or at least my tradition) sees no difference between the "natural" and man-made. It is all part of the universe and deity. Nothing is held to be of more value than another part of deity.

2. We base "how much is enough" on our perceived and real needs and wants.

1. See #2. Enough is when we feel it is. That does not mean that others will have the same standards.

Very Libertarian Gilly

Sakhaiva wrote:

DotNotInOz wrote:Some additional thoughts...

Maybe it's my independent Kansas farmer ancestry grousing here, but I find people like Suelo and to some extent Peace Pilgrim who live off the kindness of others more moochers than admirable.

hmmm...... sorta harsh. But understandable.

Perhaps another pov is to see these 'moochers' as teachers. Are we so addicted to our things that we cannot bear to part with them? Not only parting with our things, but -- at times -- parting with our time and energy as well.

While I know that the tradition of the Indian ascetics suggests that someone such as Peace Pilgrim or Suelo is supposed to be viewed as a teacher, I simply don't see Suelo as much of a teacher when he appears (if we can believe the story's slant) to be rebelling against materialism rather fanatically. Now, if he lived entirely off the land and never took food or other necessities from people but only scavenged in dumpsters, that might be a different thing entirely as I see it. Would much of anyone get his point if he weren't being written about? Quite likely not. That's why I mentioned that Peace Pilgrim seems to me more nearly a teacher since she was actively engaging people in discussion and lecturing about the importance of international peace. But my thinking so probably only represents my crassly materialistic outlook, yanno?

I struggle with sharing my time and energy as much as I struggle with sharing my stuff. There are people who come to my 'free' yoga classes whove never once come to classes where they need to pay (which is my only means of survival)

Moochers, if they actually can afford to pay or bring you veggies from their garden, fruit from their tree, offer to run your clothes to the laundromat so you don't have to...etc.

This is a personal challenge for me, and it's interesting as the roles of 'moocher' and 'moochie' can be reversed; they mooching my time and energy, and me mooching their green dollars!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I don't see how you're "mooching their green dollars." Mooching to me means taking from others something that you could provide for yourself without giving them something in return. You teach yoga which your students don't know but wish to learn and are paid for your time, effort and expertise. What's mooching about that? I don't get it.

I agree with that
Sakhaiva. You are not being paid for Yoga, you are being paid for th time you are giving these people, your precious time.

And they are learning something important at the same time.

I think of these things when teaching meditation or reading cards for people. It is only the time they purchase not the information.

Which when not actually teaching, I willing talk and discuss for free.

You are very valuable Sakhaiva, and thus charging a fee for your time itself is not unreasonable.

Doesn't it really depend upon how you view yoga, Sak? In my tradition, we do not take payment for instructing people in order for them to learn about and join the tradition/religion any more than the Presbyterians do. It is fine though to ask for help to defray the cost of the room, the teacher's gas and things like that because we don't believe that there should be a financial burden on the teacher either.

If you are teaching techniques to people of all religions that they will find helpful in their lives (and some may go on to join your religion but that really isn't the expectation) then you are not a religious teacher, you are teaching these people life skills, and providing directed exercises like you'd get at my local health club where yoga is taught. It isn't free at the health club (people pay a monthly fee) and it isn't free at the nearby yoga center. There you can buy a slightly discounted pass for a certain number of lessons or pay as you attend. One of our students is working to become a yoga instructor and she certainly intends for the profession of yoga instructor to provide a living wage. I don't see why you shouldn't too.

I am always of two minds on these subjects. Unfortunately one must earn a living, and if one does not have money one can not feed ones children or ones self, or keep a roof over ones head.

And if you can not shelter yourself or eat, you can not teach anyone anything.

It is a strange and tricky situaltion

Thanks guys, it is strange and tricky thing for me

Dot, you made good sense re: Suelo and Peace Pilgrim. One word you used really hits the nail on the head; "rebelling" To do anything out of rebellion will never carry the same conviction or beauty as something done out of peace. And thanks for helping me call a spade a spade re: moochers (people who only take and offer nothing in return)

MC, I'd love to hear about your teaching meditation.

Man, my house is crawling with kids today (it's too hot outside and my place seems to be the chosen designation to play) I'll revisit when I have some space to think

Personally? Material stuff? Not really my cup of tea. I can take it or leave it. I prefer to leave it, when it comes to the newest this, or that! We didn't get our computer til 2001 (for the kid's school work), didn't get cell phones until 3yrs ago (joined up & needed to keep in contact with our troops).
As far as indigenous people go with the "materialist world", it has its benefits if they are feeding themselves, have fresh water to drink, & shelter, other than the fast food, fast pace, & name brand shoes/clothes along with the bling? Well to each their own. But look around we have the same "problems" here in the US!
You do know as Americans we eat more, spend more, & throw away more than the rest of the world? Some Europeans call us the "Throw Away Nation."
A "moocher" is someone that wants, takes, without giving anything in return, not a "thank you" or "a go to hell". They think that the world owes them something, or they are owed whatever they take. They never intend to return any favor either. If you call them on it, they usually give the excuse of "Why did you give it to me, if you want it back?"