What makes a "sacred text" sacred?

I did not know spirits of place were called 'wights' in Asatru, that's interesting.

A lot of similar practices I know are to do with 'elementals', which is not quite the same, but certain elementals are often said to tend, for example, the fire in a house. I have never tried 'gifting' them but I'm told you can do it with salt in the fireplace. Or you can empty wine into the community bonfire on a festival night for luck. It is similar to the work with a hearth goddess I guess.

I agree with gillyflower that you have to address the spirits of place. I try to do this in my house and street but I have no specific practice. I have been considering doing a gift of some kind, I should probably think about it...

Dot wrote:I think it significant to note the phrases I've bolded above. Been too many years since I read Monroe, so I don't recall how he hit upon the idea that OBE's were real and could be initiated at will. But I bet he got it from some influence outside himself.

Well yeah, you do kind of need to go back and read him again. He didn't 'get the idea' -- he didn't 'try to do it' -- it just happened. Don't you remember this? It was totally spontaneous.

He woke up one night, as I recall, and found a strange crystal fountain next to him. And then he realized it was the chandelier. And that he was floating on the ceiling.

(Furthermore, this happens alot. Spontaneous obe is very very common amongst OBE types. There is research. Belief systems are not necessary.)

Otherwise, how did he know that he wasn't simply becoming mentally ill?

He covers all that in his first book... he did! He believed this for a considerable time and went to several shrinks who insisted he was sane. And eventually he realized that he was, and that his normal consciousness was not in any way disturbed. The truth is, as everyone discovers who does it, that your consciousness is not any different from your everyday waking consciousness.

I'm not trying to deceive anyone here Dot...

Both Buhlman and Peterson were influenced by Monroe's experiences.

No, they only used his techniques. And until they succeeded (which in Buhlman's case took a month) they had no belief that OBE was possible. Furthermore, although their experiences (and those of Vieira, Bruce, Muldoon, Crookall, Hughes... I could name 50) do have much in common, they also have many differences. What they have in common is the basic fact, and many individual ideas, but the experiences are certainly not identical either. What is identical is the technique (and even that varies with experience.)

Now expand that out cross-culturally... look at all the poets and artists who have had it... look at Swedenborg, Hafiz, D.H. Lawrence... then look at the fact that, when you see techniques for doing it in occult training (say) they often correspond and even give similar results. Never identical, because it's individual... but always comparable and many things are consistent. (Doesn't Crowley have stuff on building a body of light and using it to explore the planes? That's a different method but if you used it you would get comparable results. What I don't remember if he mentions or not is that one of the planes you can explore is this one. And I don't remember what details he gives... but on him you are the expert.)

And how did all these people surveyed know that's what they were doing without prior knowledge that such experiences "exist"?

Think over this question carefully! All of these people had one thing in common: they were absolutely sure they had left their bodies. It's the same as with Monroe. That is the only 'belief' you need to hold to have had an OBE. And it comes only from experience!

Of course, some did try deliberately to do it. But many people also have it spontaneously... I mean if you are really interested you can pick up the books or whatever. You will see for yourself.

The latest research indicates everyone does it subconsciously when they are sleeping -- which I agree with BTW. And also very common (which happened to me too) is to have them when you are young but forget about it later, until you do it again.

Buhlman's response must be much higher than 18,000 by now and his isn't the only survey. The IAC is doing one. Their book 'Projectiology' has a bibliography with 2,000 volumes!

I don't regard this as proof that any such experiences are actual. While I'm inclined to think that they may be, I don't think we know enough about the nature of OBE's that occur spontaneously in cultures not predisposed to regard them as actual to pontificate that anyone knows them to be literal experiences and not merely an interesting delusion or hallucination.

The problem that I have with such discussions is that we too often presume that that which we believe/wish to be real actually is.

Since I haven't claimed this as 'proof', why mention that it isn't?

I'll go over what I think on this once again.

What I'm saying is not 'this proves' anything. I am saying that at any time you like you could prove it for yourself if you had an OBE. Everyone who has one says the same: yes I was really out of my body. And a substantial portion of those say, yes, I saw my body lying there. But everyone who hasn't had one says, you can't have. What does that tell you?

No, there's no proof. There's significant evidence in the work of Charles Tart, and more all the time -- I loved this for example: http://www.skeptiko.com/75-marilynn-hughes-obe-experiment/ -- but conclusive proof, no, not yet.

An actual close look at the phenomena as they have been reported shows the difference between OBE and other forms of, let's say, visions of things that are not physically there. Even if you don't want to have an OBE and test for yourself (which I understand) you have to look at what is known before you.... well, know it.

Eg. from the Gabbard/Twemlow studies:

LUCID DREAMS
50%-70% incidence in population, occurs only in sleep, dreamer can programme dream, dreamer has no sense of leaving body, often vivid or 'mystical' consciousness, dream is seen as subjective/product of subconscious, EEG shows REM sleep with occasional alpha, physical body is not viewed, lasting positive impact is rare.

OBEs
14%-25% incidence in populatio, occurs usually when awake, OBEer cannot create the reality experienced, perceives self as separate from physical body, consciousness feels exactly the same as ordinary (nonmystical) waking consciousness [telling one that -- PS], no typical EEG wave, physical body is usually seen [by what? -- PS], usually positive lasting impact.

Even looking at what is going on without having an OBE, you find significant stuff of this kind. It's as if you were to have an experience of meeting a ghost on a country lane, and then discover there is a signed guestbook at the local inn with 18,000 signatures, all of whom saw the ghost. Does it prove anything to someone who didn't see the ghost? Nope. But a) You can see very well that there is internal consistency between the experiences if you actually look at what is written; and b) You can always stand on the lane a while yourself!

Enough on this cos it's OT.