Comic books?
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sacrificialgoddess
Gorm_Sionnach
Ottr
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Comic books?
So here’s a question I’ve been chewing on today … and I may be opening a can of worms here, but …
How do you feel about the modern use of our Gods in everything from comic books to computer games, to fantasy novels etc.? (Thor for us Asatruar, Epona comes to mind for CR)
I admit, I have mixed feelings about the issue. On the one hand, raising the level of awareness of our Gods through modern means also raises curiosity, which can lead to research, and understanding.
On the other, intellectual laziness seems to be common fair in today’s world, and treating the Gods as mere comic book characters, can lead to misinformation and misunderstanding.
So anyway, I’m just curious … Any thoughts, comments?
Enquiring minds want to know.
How do you feel about the modern use of our Gods in everything from comic books to computer games, to fantasy novels etc.? (Thor for us Asatruar, Epona comes to mind for CR)
I admit, I have mixed feelings about the issue. On the one hand, raising the level of awareness of our Gods through modern means also raises curiosity, which can lead to research, and understanding.
On the other, intellectual laziness seems to be common fair in today’s world, and treating the Gods as mere comic book characters, can lead to misinformation and misunderstanding.
So anyway, I’m just curious … Any thoughts, comments?
Enquiring minds want to know.
Ottr- Posts : 80
Join date : 2009-10-09
Location : North Woods, Great Lakes, USA
Re: Comic books?
Ottr wrote:So here’s a question I’ve been chewing on today … and I may be opening a can of worms here, but …
How do you feel about the modern use of our Gods in everything from comic books to computer games, to fantasy novels etc.? (Thor for us Asatruar, Epona comes to mind for CR)
I admit, I have mixed feelings about the issue. On the one hand, raising the level of awareness of our Gods through modern means also raises curiosity, which can lead to research, and understanding.
On the other, intellectual laziness seems to be common fair in today’s world, and treating the Gods as mere comic book characters, can lead to misinformation and misunderstanding.
So anyway, I’m just curious … Any thoughts, comments?
Enquiring minds want to know.
This is something which interests me a great deal, being both a mythology and comic geek. While graphic representations can be a decent means of discovering something, it is rarely the best source to use as authoritative.
For example, I've started reading the new Thor comics, and while the mythology presented is at variance with the source material, many aspects of the character and "values" of the culture he comes from is visible. I would certainly be for more accurate portrayals, especially graphic adaptations. I'd love to see someone like Frank Millar tackle the Tain Bo Cuilaigne, I'd argue that the source material lends itself more to such over the top representations than the battle of Thermopylae.
In regards to appropriation... it's a fairly untenable position. Considering that the comic book Thor has been around longer than Asatru (far as I know anyway), and considering the culture which originally revered him is long dead (folk traditions aside). Aside from being a comic geek, I'm also into Anime and Manga, and actually do a panel at Anime North on mythology in Anime/manga, and there is a bevy of picking and name dropping, or using an existing mythology to frame the background of a specific series. Ah My Goddess! for example bases itself loosely tales involving the Norns. Another seires, Fate/Stay night, involves several western mythological and historic figures (Cuchulain, Arthur Pendragon, Herecles, Medusa). So to put it succinctly, cultures seem to enjoy the stories or figures of other cultures and are willing to adopt them to suit whichever needs they want. I've no problem with it used for the sake of entertainment, when it comes to theological issues, it becomes more problematic...
As far as representations, they shouldn't be taken as historically authoritative. I always appreciate representations which are based on the source material, or understood in their cultural context, but such is the way of modern pop culture. I'd much prefer that in popular representations, where the show actually tries to represent factual information on cultural group X, and fails miserably. For example, my fiancee, who is also a nerd, is at the moment watching an episode of Lois and Clark, which features an evil Irishman, who is trying to restore the Druids to power. It pains me to see such awful information being bandied about...
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
Meh. Most of us first encounter the gods in stories. Does it matter, if people are creating new stories for them?
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Ottr wrote:So here’s a question I’ve been chewing on today … and I may be opening a can of worms here, but …
How do you feel about the modern use of our Gods in everything from comic books to computer games, to fantasy novels etc.? (Thor for us Asatruar, Epona comes to mind for CR)
I admit, I have mixed feelings about the issue. On the one hand, raising the level of awareness of our Gods through modern means also raises curiosity, which can lead to research, and understanding.
On the other, intellectual laziness seems to be common fair in today’s world, and treating the Gods as mere comic book characters, can lead to misinformation and misunderstanding.
So anyway, I’m just curious … Any thoughts, comments?
Enquiring minds want to know.
This is something which interests me a great deal, being both a mythology and comic geek. While graphic representations can be a decent means of discovering something, it is rarely the best source to use as authoritative.
For example, I've started reading the new Thor comics, and while the mythology presented is at variance with the source material, many aspects of the character and "values" of the culture he comes from is visible. I would certainly be for more accurate portrayals, especially graphic adaptations. I'd love to see someone like Frank Millar tackle the Tain Bo Cuilaigne, I'd argue that the source material lends itself more to such over the top representations than the battle of Thermopylae.
In regards to appropriation... it's a fairly untenable position. Considering that the comic book Thor has been around longer than Asatru (far as I know anyway), and considering the culture which originally revered him is long dead (folk traditions aside). Aside from being a comic geek, I'm also into Anime and Manga, and actually do a panel at Anime North on mythology in Anime/manga, and there is a bevy of picking and name dropping, or using an existing mythology to frame the background of a specific series. Ah My Goddess! for example bases itself loosely tales involving the Norns. Another seires, Fate/Stay night, involves several western mythological and historic figures (Cuchulain, Arthur Pendragon, Herecles, Medusa). So to put it succinctly, cultures seem to enjoy the stories or figures of other cultures and are willing to adopt them to suit whichever needs they want. I've no problem with it used for the sake of entertainment, when it comes to theological issues, it becomes more problematic...
As far as representations, they shouldn't be taken as historically authoritative. I always appreciate representations which are based on the source material, or understood in their cultural context, but such is the way of modern pop culture. I'd much prefer that in popular representations, where the show actually tries to represent factual information on cultural group X, and fails miserably. For example, my fiancee, who is also a nerd, is at the moment watching an episode of Lois and Clark, which features an evil Irishman, who is trying to restore the Druids to power. It pains me to see such awful information being bandied about...
Bringing the Snakes back to Ireland?
Davelaw- Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas
Re: Comic books?
Davelaw wrote:Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Ottr wrote:So here’s a question I’ve been chewing on today … and I may be opening a can of worms here, but …
How do you feel about the modern use of our Gods in everything from comic books to computer games, to fantasy novels etc.? (Thor for us Asatruar, Epona comes to mind for CR)
I admit, I have mixed feelings about the issue. On the one hand, raising the level of awareness of our Gods through modern means also raises curiosity, which can lead to research, and understanding.
On the other, intellectual laziness seems to be common fair in today’s world, and treating the Gods as mere comic book characters, can lead to misinformation and misunderstanding.
So anyway, I’m just curious … Any thoughts, comments?
Enquiring minds want to know.
This is something which interests me a great deal, being both a mythology and comic geek. While graphic representations can be a decent means of discovering something, it is rarely the best source to use as authoritative.
For example, I've started reading the new Thor comics, and while the mythology presented is at variance with the source material, many aspects of the character and "values" of the culture he comes from is visible. I would certainly be for more accurate portrayals, especially graphic adaptations. I'd love to see someone like Frank Millar tackle the Tain Bo Cuilaigne, I'd argue that the source material lends itself more to such over the top representations than the battle of Thermopylae.
In regards to appropriation... it's a fairly untenable position. Considering that the comic book Thor has been around longer than Asatru (far as I know anyway), and considering the culture which originally revered him is long dead (folk traditions aside). Aside from being a comic geek, I'm also into Anime and Manga, and actually do a panel at Anime North on mythology in Anime/manga, and there is a bevy of picking and name dropping, or using an existing mythology to frame the background of a specific series. Ah My Goddess! for example bases itself loosely tales involving the Norns. Another seires, Fate/Stay night, involves several western mythological and historic figures (Cuchulain, Arthur Pendragon, Herecles, Medusa). So to put it succinctly, cultures seem to enjoy the stories or figures of other cultures and are willing to adopt them to suit whichever needs they want. I've no problem with it used for the sake of entertainment, when it comes to theological issues, it becomes more problematic...
As far as representations, they shouldn't be taken as historically authoritative. I always appreciate representations which are based on the source material, or understood in their cultural context, but such is the way of modern pop culture. I'd much prefer that in popular representations, where the show actually tries to represent factual information on cultural group X, and fails miserably. For example, my fiancee, who is also a nerd, is at the moment watching an episode of Lois and Clark, which features an evil Irishman, who is trying to restore the Druids to power. It pains me to see such awful information being bandied about...
Bringing the Snakes back to Ireland?
Well, the snakes never left, their functions were subsumed by other groups. But no, it wasn't even that deep, piffle comes to mind.
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
sacrificialgoddess wrote:Meh. Most of us first encounter the gods in stories. Does it matter, if people are creating new stories for them?
Well, only if those stories are held as authoritative (I've yet to meet someone who claims that Thor's nature is better understood through the comic, rather than the Eddas)
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
I am not sure that authoritative matters. Maybe the comic books don't show Thor's nature. But maybe, just maybe, they aren't meant to. Maybe they are meant to encourage our own nature. To make us better people. Maybe the Eddas are there for the same reason. I view most stories as journeys that other people, sometimes fictional people are meant to go through, but that I can learn from, even if the lesson is "see? This is why you shouldn't be a dumbass."
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
Very nicely phrased SG
_________________
Your beliefs don't make you a better person, your behaviour does.
MaineCaptain- Admin
- Posts : 2869
Join date : 2009-04-01
Location : New England
Re: Comic books?
sacrificialgoddess wrote:I am not sure that authoritative matters. Maybe the comic books don't show Thor's nature. But maybe, just maybe, they aren't meant to. Maybe they are meant to encourage our own nature. To make us better people. Maybe the Eddas are there for the same reason. I view most stories as journeys that other people, sometimes fictional people are meant to go through, but that I can learn from, even if the lesson is "see? This is why you shouldn't be a dumbass."
I'm not sure that the writers of the Thor comic book are looking to do anything else other than tell a story, and sell the brand. Though it is an interesting aspect to consider.
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
Are we talking Marvel's Thor?
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
sacrificialgoddess wrote:Are we talking Marvel's Thor?
Verily, it is the Odinson we speak of.
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
Thor was never my favorite. I was always a Fantastic Four girl. But I think Marvel has always been the king of the difficult decision. I can't remember anything for Thor's storyline. Usually I came across him in the Avenger's books, or as a guest star in other books.
But I think, based on the other books I have read, that Thor has likely shown people the difficult decision, and the repercussions of the bad decision.
Leastwise that is what I always got out of the Marvel books.
But I think, based on the other books I have read, that Thor has likely shown people the difficult decision, and the repercussions of the bad decision.
Leastwise that is what I always got out of the Marvel books.
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
sacrificialgoddess wrote:Thor was never my favorite. I was always a Fantastic Four girl. But I think Marvel has always been the king of the difficult decision. I can't remember anything for Thor's storyline. Usually I came across him in the Avenger's books, or as a guest star in other books.
But I think, based on the other books I have read, that Thor has likely shown people the difficult decision, and the repercussions of the bad decision.
Leastwise that is what I always got out of the Marvel books.
Well Marvel has certainly covered difficult issues, and (at least originally, its become a lot more nuanced in the last few decades) characters with personal problems, which seemed a little grittier than DC, but even then there are all sorts of exceptions... Certainly comics can convey any number of values in their plots, characters and mythologies, but I believe the difference between comic book mythos and historic cultural myths (like the eddas) is the primary function; comics like Thor, and frankly any mainstream comic franchise, is selling comics and maintaining the franchise. Works like the Eddas were more about instilling the virtues and values of the culture into subsequent generations.
_________________
If you approach the Gaelic gods with 'I'm not worthy', they're going to reply to you with 'Then come back when you are.
Three Shouts on a Hilltop
Re: Comic books?
Not arguing with you. I just think there is value in both.
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
Wow … Now there’s some food for thought.
Mornin’ Gorm …
I hope I started this thread in the appropriate area. After I posted it here I realized it might have fit better in the area open to debate. So, my apologies if I’m messing up the halls here.
As an aside … one of my favorite quotes …
“The geeks shall inherit the earth” ~ Rachel Maddow
Mornin’ Gorm …
I hope I started this thread in the appropriate area. After I posted it here I realized it might have fit better in the area open to debate. So, my apologies if I’m messing up the halls here.
This is where I too feel that there is some value to this all. While the character may only be a shadow of the God, the values, or virtues that the audience is exposed to doesn’t seem to reflect badly. In fact it may even cause young ones to want to emulate their favorite “hero”. Which isn’t a bad thing.Gorm_Sionnach wrote:For example, I've started reading the new Thor comics, and while the mythology presented is at variance with the source material, many aspects of the character and "values" of the culture he comes from is visible.
Ahhh … Anime and Manga. Really cool. My daughter is in her senior year of High School and dual enrolled in our local collage studying illustration this year. She wants to write and illustrate Anime/Manga as a career, and if I may boast a bit, she’s *damn* good at what she does. Then again, all my kids are brilliant. It’s that Heathen upbringing, ya know.Gorm_Sionnach wrote:Aside from being a comic geek, I'm also into Anime and Manga, and actually do a panel at Anime North on mythology in Anime/manga, and there is a bevy of picking and name dropping, or using an existing mythology to frame the background of a specific series. Ah My Goddess! for example bases itself loosely tales involving the Norns. Another seires, Fate/Stay night, involves several western mythological and historic figures (Cuchulain, Arthur Pendragon, Herecles, Medusa).
And here is where I have that tugging of irritation. When entertainment is confused with historical foundation. I guess for me it’s much like the issue of someone insisting UPG belongs in the foundation of collective reconstructionist belief, rather than in ones personal practice that’s based on that same foundation. If that makes sense. More coffee is needed.Gorm_Sionnach wrote:So to put it succinctly, cultures seem to enjoy the stories or figures of other cultures and are willing to adopt them to suit whichever needs they want. I've no problem with it used for the sake of entertainment, when it comes to theological issues, it becomes more problematic...
As an aside … one of my favorite quotes …
“The geeks shall inherit the earth” ~ Rachel Maddow
Ottr- Posts : 80
Join date : 2009-10-09
Location : North Woods, Great Lakes, USA
Re: Comic books?
Hello SacrificialGoddess … Nice to meet you.
I agree that both fiction, and historical cultural myth have value. I guess what troubles me is when fiction or even UPG, ends up posing as historical cultural myth, which then can be used by such authors as Ralph Blum. I know that relates more to runes, but it’s morning, and he’s the example that came to mind.
I have to admit, Thor as a comic book character was a bit further down the list. I was more of a Ghost Rider fan myself.sacrificialgoddess wrote:Thor was never my favorite. I was always a Fantastic Four girl.
I agree that both fiction, and historical cultural myth have value. I guess what troubles me is when fiction or even UPG, ends up posing as historical cultural myth, which then can be used by such authors as Ralph Blum. I know that relates more to runes, but it’s morning, and he’s the example that came to mind.
Ottr- Posts : 80
Join date : 2009-10-09
Location : North Woods, Great Lakes, USA
Re: Comic books?
But you know, that is not terribly likely to happen in Comics. More likely to happen in "scholarly" literature. Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman comes to mind. Good book, yes. Mostly debunked, however.
_________________
Remember one thing about democracy. We can have anything we want and at the same time, we always end up with exactly what we deserve.
Edward Albee
Re: Comic books?
I can agree with that.sacrificialgoddess wrote:But you know, that is not terribly likely to happen in Comics. More likely to happen in "scholarly" literature.
LoL! I have that book on my shelf, and never did get time to read it. If I do, I’ll be sure to read with a critical eye. Thanks.sacrificialgoddess wrote: Merlin Stone's When God was a Woman comes to mind. Good book, yes. Mostly debunked, however.
Ottr- Posts : 80
Join date : 2009-10-09
Location : North Woods, Great Lakes, USA
Re: Comic books?
sacrificialgoddess wrote:I am not sure that authoritative matters. Maybe the comic books don't show Thor's nature. But maybe, just maybe, they aren't meant to. Maybe they are meant to encourage our own nature. To make us better people. Maybe the Eddas are there for the same reason. I view most stories as journeys that other people, sometimes fictional people are meant to go through, but that I can learn from, even if the lesson is "see? This is why you shouldn't be a dumbass."
I think ElfQuest did it right -- taking elements of mythology (elves, trolls, an EPIC quest) and sci-fi (super-advanced space-faring race*) and weaving them into something totally original. If I had to pick "gods" I'd choose the High Ones.
* Seriously, guys, just read the epic.
***EDIT****
Wait, what about the Cthulhu Mythos? That teaches that, when you find something that isn't meant for man to see/know, LEAVE IT ALONE. Especially old creepy books. (Incidentally, I do have a copy of the Simon Necronomicon.)
Re: Comic books?
WMDKitty wrote:sacrificialgoddess wrote:I am not sure that authoritative matters. Maybe the comic books don't show Thor's nature. But maybe, just maybe, they aren't meant to. Maybe they are meant to encourage our own nature. To make us better people. Maybe the Eddas are there for the same reason. I view most stories as journeys that other people, sometimes fictional people are meant to go through, but that I can learn from, even if the lesson is "see? This is why you shouldn't be a dumbass."
I think ElfQuest did it right -- taking elements of mythology (elves, trolls, an EPIC quest) and sci-fi (super-advanced space-faring race*) and weaving them into something totally original. If I had to pick "gods" I'd choose the High Ones.
* Seriously, guys, just read the epic.
***EDIT****
Wait, what about the Cthulhu Mythos? That teaches that, when you find something that isn't meant for man to see/know, LEAVE IT ALONE. Especially old creepy books. (Incidentally, I do have a copy of the Simon Necronomicon.)
there is nothing wrong with ElfQuest; but I will choose Dave Sim's Opus over EQ-no matter how badly flawed some of the parts are.
Davelaw- Posts : 1684
Join date : 2009-07-18
Location : Houston Texas
Re: Comic books?
Honestly anything that gets people aware of the old sagas, in whatever cheesy form, is a good thing. One day that glimmer of interest might just get someone to look deeper and learn something of the truth, or of themselves.
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